Quantcast

Glocks and SIG's - your recommendations and why.

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by P95Carry, Dec 20, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Tecolote

    Tecolote Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2003
    Messages:
    904
    Merely responding to your statement that SIGs are disappearing.

    You should look into SIG's latest offerings.

    Weight, granted, unless you're talking about the SIG Pro

    Complex? What parts of a SIG would you eliminate? They seem to work just fine.

    Lower capacity? +2s from MecGar fit flush and make the P228 hold 15 rounds and P226 17 rounds, if you need more you can buy a 20 round mag.

    Higher maintenance? All sidearms require the same mainteance, cleand lube regulalry unless you want problems.

    Inconsistent trigger pull? Have you tried DAK? Sounds like you haven't.

    High bore axis? The red herring always mentioned by Glock cultist. ;) The higher bore axis is no detriment to fast follow ups and accuracy.

    Tenifer? SIG stainless slides have Nitron finishes that stands up to abuse very well. Ilafon is also a tough finish used by SIG on the carbon steel slides.

    Higher price? In my neck of the woods a NIB Glock costs $500 and a NIB SIG Pro costs $400, so much for higher price. :) Even the SIG classics are only a $100 more than a Glock. $100 won't even get you a decent dinner for four if you throw in drinks and desert.

    As I said if you like Glocks buy more and enjoy them, they're reliable and durable. There's no need to put down SIG just to make your favorite brand look better. :)
     
  2. coylh

    coylh Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    Bothell, WA
    People sure love to hate other people's guns.

    I always end up choosing my guns for really esoteric reasons:

    * I don't like the glock grip texture or one-size-fits-all trigger guard.
    * I like the sig disassembly process better
    * Am I the only one left that actually likes DA/SA?
     
  3. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    CoylH .. nope, I am happy with DA/SA also - it is simply something that requires some practice - nothing more. Some folks hate ''Mr Fugly'' - the P series ... in my case 95 and 97 - but they can be ''tamed'' and used more than a little efficiently.

    There is (inevitably) some rivalry when it comes to individual's ''loves'' - we tend to defend our choices. Partly understandable. In the end tho - it is entirely ''what works for you'' .... I am still not sufficiently ''aux fait'' with Glocks to feel I want one (yet!!) ... may happen later. This not to put that gun down .. it is a preference thing. I am a BHP fan and superficially cannot conceive of someone not swooning over one of JMB's masterpieces ... but a few hate them. No problem ... we all (for now thank heaven) still enjoy free choice - long may that last!! :)
     
  4. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    Hehe ... I can take it Chip ... expected almost! :D

    ''Sticks and stones ... may .....'' ya know - the resilience of old age!! :p

    Have a great day.
     
  5. Curare

    Curare Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2003
    Messages:
    462
    "High bore axis? The red herring always mentioned by Glock cultist. The higher bore axis is no detriment to fast follow ups and accuracy."

    That's why you see so many SIGs, and not lower bore axis Glocks and 1911s, in competition. Where are all these NIB $600 DAK SIGs? The DAK and the LEM is an effort by SIG and HK to compete with Glock's Safe Action--the DA/SA is falling out of favor as police and military realize that two different trigger weights and pulls do not aid combat effectiveness. I like the second strike capability, however.

    Weight, width and complexity are important factors in selecting a handgun that may be carried. Every additional small part and spring is another potential failure point. You are the first person I've heared suggest that the Glock and SIG need an equivalent level of maintenance--would you suggest the same for the AK and AR analogy?

    I've owned a 239 in 9mm, a 229 in .40, and a 228. I love SIG factory sights (one of GLock's weaknesses), but I was pretty concerned about the frame rail galling in the 229 and newer production 228.
     
  6. Tecolote

    Tecolote Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2003
    Messages:
    904
    Try www.ordnanceoutsellers.com You can't beat their prices on NIB DAK SIGs. If you're paying too much that's your problem.

    Competition and real world are two different things. Can you name two elite military units that use Glocks? USN SEALs, British SAS, Dutch Royal Marine Commandos, etc. etc. use SIGs. Get on the phone and tell them that they're using an inferior product. :uhoh: As I said Glock are fine but they're not the end all and be all. More and more Glock is losing huge contracts because Safe-Action isn't for everybody. What's hard so to understand about that? Are you so insecure in your choice that you have to bash SIGs to feel better? :evil:
     
  7. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    OK already!! Points made! :p

    Some great info has been posted but as I said up front - this was never intended to a Glock vs SIG competition, tho inevitably some of that will always creep in! So - just constructive crit's ... and keep the destructives down low. :)
     
  8. HKGuns

    HKGuns Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Location:
    Bora Bora
    Neither.......both were on my list initially. Ended up with an H&K USP 45c. Feels so much better in the hand than the two you are considering.
     
  9. Curare

    Curare Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2003
    Messages:
    462
    Another thing to consider with Glock is that there are so many sources for factory and aftermarket parts out there. The factory parts are affordable as well. This enables one to experiment with the trigger, different mag releases, and the recoil springs with little fear of breaking an expensive part. I'm a tinkerer and Glock is perfect for that. While the factory sights are a weak point, this is more than overcome by the myriad high quality sights available.

    For example with my G17 that I use for range use, I've created a 2.75 pound trigger that breaks like a fine 1911 trigger--just by experimenting, while keeping the three factory safeties intact. The take-up is smooth and light, with a crisp break and minimal overertravel. Reset is only a few millimeters. I can swap in the factory striker spring in less than a minute for a 3.5ish trigger pull with the exact same smoooth take up, break feel (no creep), and minimal overtravel, plus I'm more confident with the ignition should the S hit the F. The normal reaction when people try the trigger is a big smile. :D

    The Glock community is also fantastic in its support of shooting sports. While I haven't shot in the outdoor league the indoor bullseye league is so much fun in the winter--my first match was last week and I scored a 496/500. The top shooters were unbelievable, however--I've got some catch-up work to do before February's match.
     
  10. Curare

    Curare Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2003
    Messages:
    462
    A quick note about bore axis--it's not something to be discounted.

    P95, I came up with a good way to illustrate this last night.

    Like the P7M8, BHP, SIG 210 and 1911, the Glock, unlike most convetional DA/SA pistols sits low in the hand. These firearms don't have to raise the bore above the more complex DA/SA lock work. This low bore axis contributes to reduced split times and perceived recoil by decreasing muzzle flip. That's why over the last 20 years, 1911 pistolsmiths have lowered the bore axis further and further with higher and higher beavertails--it gives the shooter a competitive advantage in combat or in a game.

    Let's look at an example by taking 2 different bore axis measurements to extremes.

    Let's say the bore axis of an imaginary single shot pistol went through the center of your hand up through the marrow of your radius--almost like a competition level air pistol. Call this measurement our baseline. As the gun recoils, the force vector is straight back into your hand. The muzzle does not rise at all. The sights barely move off the target.

    Now lets place the barrel 10" above the baseline. While the recoil vector is still parallel to your radius bone, it is 10 inches above it. As the gun fires, the pistol violently torques in your hand, the muzzle rises severely and the sights move off target. Your grip is altered, and you must take time to reestablish it.

    Both of these examples are to the extreme, but they illustrate that with a lower bore axis the recoil is less disruptive to your grip and the orientation of your sights to your target. It's an important aspect of a pistols shootability, and combined with the consistent trigger pull, makes the Glock an excellent choice.
     
  11. orangeninja

    orangeninja Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,117
    Personally I own multiples of both.

    I like both brands, you really can't go wrong, and once you start measuring bore axis or comparing which finish can take the most salt water abuse, you've come to splitting hairs.
    :)
     
  12. Curare

    Curare Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2003
    Messages:
    462
    Seems you like to "split hairs" too.

    "I like both brands, you really can't go wrong, and once you start measuring bore axis or comparing which finish can take the most salt water abuse, you've come to splitting hairs."

    Bore axis of SIG compared to others

    Concerns about the XD9's high bore axis

    CZ75B's low bore axis compared to others

    Salt water abuse and the XD9

    Another finish comparison

    I'm not sure who's measuring bore axis, but it's certainly not you or me. Obviously neither you nor I have a problem with discussing bore axis or finish--they're both important aspects in selecting a pistol. Take care. :) :cool:
     
  13. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    I will certainly concede that bore axis is a factor - if only and in part from, a pure vector mechanics standpoint. I'll be honest too and add to that, that one of our top IDPA shooters uses Glock and has maybe the fastest double tap times I have seen - consistent with superb scores.

    So yeah - it is a factor to which I give serious thought. Other things tho come in to my decision-making process ... how the gun feels in my hand - my grip ... my feeling of control and ergo's etc. If I look at other high scorers using SIGs then I also see some very fine shooting - and good enough to not be able to entirely equate this all to only the gun.

    The bore axis deal is in part incontravertible and I would not argue it as a specific. I will tho take more than that singularity into account in choosing my piece. That is not knocking or praising any particular gun.

    Thx again for some good (and spirited) input! :)
     
  14. orangeninja

    orangeninja Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,117
    Curare.....I didn't know I had a fan...I've been known to split hairs. :)

    All kidding aside though, there was a time that I was looking for THE perfect handgun. It came shortly after reading "Handgun Combatives" in which the author details the differences of those who "collect" guns and those who "compete" with guns from those who are truly serious about defense.

    The nature of my job mandates that I shoot to be defensive, thus I sold all guns that I considered to be to heavy, sloppy, unreliable, big etc. I was looking for "THE ONE". My discovery? It does not exist.

    Thus I have 2 Glock 17's for off duty use because I am really not into maintaining a weapon and the sight of a dremel tool causes my butt to pucker so tight that I walk funny. Secondly, I HATE to carry spare mags off duty, when you carry as much crap as I do as often as I do, you appreciate breaking it down to the minimum. 18 rounds of 9mm oughta do 'er.

    Sig 229's are great BUT I carry at least ONE spare mag when using this, cause baby, 12 rounds is gonna go QUICK in a multiple suspect shooting. Especially when trained to shoot 2, 3, and 6 string fires on multiple targes. The Glock 17 is really suited to this type of shooting, but the 229 is supposed to be a better fight stopper. I dunno...the whole .40 vs 9mm thing. When your firing 2 to 6 shots at each suspect in around 2 seconds, caliber kinda flies out the window.

    Bore axis is good for shot recovery but may be overcome by an excellent grip angle, ala Sig 229 or Sig 228 which are suited just about perfect for me.

    The Glock grip takes getting used to.

    The Sig Bore axis takes getting used to.

    Either way.....we're splitting hairs. Heck get both.
     
  15. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    Thx Alduro - and the invoice should be sent too ? ...... (insert addy here) LOL :p
     
  16. Checkman

    Checkman member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,884
    Location:
    Idaho
    I'm authorized to carry both the 220 and the 245 when I'm on duty. They're both good guns. I actually score higher on the qualification course with my 245 even though it has a shorter barrel and grip - go figure. I've owned my 220 for almost fourteen years and it's never let me down. I've had the 245 for four years, but so far it's doing great. The majority of officers on my department carry Glocks - mostly the G22 and G23. I've fired them and I have found them to be very accurate, but my 220 was the first handgun that I really got serious with and consequently Sigs are what I'm comfortable with. I suppose it's like the old cops with their revolvers. I've seen some of those so called dinosaurs and their six-shooters outdo many a younger cop who is using a hi-cap auto. Why? Well they practice and they've been practicing for many years with their "obsolete" wheelguns - which they're comfortable with.

    To wrap up this long winded piece I've outscored more then a few officers with their hi-cap models(Sigs, Glocks, Berettas, Springfields etc.). There I am reloading several times with my seven round magazines and they're blazing away with their thirteen and fifteen mags and I qualify on the first round. Why? Well this is just a guess but perhaps much about effective shooting is mental? What the heck. Get a Glock or Sig or get both like somebody posted earlier. They're solid. You've got to practice to be really effective.Have fun.
     
  17. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    Thx again for all the input.

    I have weakened! I know I could get a police trade-in ... look out for a pre-owned etc .... but have gone ahead and ordered my 226ST ... with tritiums and an extra mag!!!! NIB.

    And I ain't telling how much it'll be ... let's just say ''spendy''. :rolleyes:
     
  18. joe sixpack

    joe sixpack Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2004
    Messages:
    831
    Location:
    Los Angeles Ca
    Great choice! I look forward to pics and details of your range time with it.
    Same gun I want to get for my kid (hey I can borrow it too you know ;))
    but for now until I get the bucks and find the piece, I'll have to live vicariously through other Sig owners.

    cheers, js
     
  19. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    Joe - will hope to get it to range pronto for a prelim work out ... and also get a pic posted .. tho heck - that many SIG guys around, it'll hardly be anything new to them!

    I am hoping this will serve well for IDPA and - if I like it enough it is very likely it'll become a carry piece.
     
  20. cslinger

    cslinger Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,672
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    COOOOLLLL :cool:

    Don't have one of those.........................YET :D
     
  21. Minute_Of_Torso

    Minute_Of_Torso Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    205
    Location:
    The Kitsap Penninsula, WA
    And after I posted this, I saw the previous three posts that said you'd already picked. Good choice, sir, and enjoy!!!

    DAY LATE AND A DOLLAR SHORT:

    OK, here is my completely subjective, highly-opinionated, based only on my own personal, limited experience opinion: :uhoh:

    I jumped on the Glock bandwagon several years ago and have since gravitated away from them only because they just don't fit my hand correctly and, therefore, don't point well for me. I could have solved this with more range time but hey, I'm lazy, and I get to the range when I can.

    Glocks proved themselves to me to be utterly reliable with whatever I fed them (this is true for the 17, 19, 21, 22, 23 and 26). I did have trouble with a 36 one time but it was eating garbage ammo and choked a few times. I became utterly bored with Glocks and the 17 is the only handgun I've ever owned that I carried (CCW) NIB without ever firing a test shot through it . . . I was convinced, based on experience, that it would go BANG if I ever needed it to.

    As I became willing to spend a few more bucks on such things, I discovered the SIG P-Series handguns. My first was a pristine trade-in P220 that I unfortunately had to sell to pay some bills. My second was a used, beat-up looking, but utterly reliable West German P220 that, once again, I sold because something else tickled my fancy.

    I have ended up with a SIG P220ST which is, IMHO, the sexiest gun made in the world today. Utterly reliable. Scary accurate. EXTREMELY HEAVY. I do not enjoy carrying the 220ST all day long. It has become my nightstand gun (now that I've got some Crimson Trace grips on it) and range gun. Now that it's wintertime and I can wear heavier clothing and suspenders, I sometimes still CCW with it but the weight is incredible after eight hours or more of walking, driving, walking, etc.

    I said in another post that I will brag about the Glock but I will brag about AND show off my SIG . . . it's purely an aesthetic thing.

    I could never really get used to the Safe-Action Trigger on the Glock, either. Yeah, same trigger pull shot-to-shot is one thing but I never really felt "safe" with that light SA pull . . . just a personal thing, not Glock's problem. I often carry IWB without a holster (sometimes referred to as "mexican" carry) and it always gave me the willies to drop the Glock into my waistband and go on my merry way.

    My 220ST's DA pull is heavy but smooth and the SA pull is relatively light and very crisp. I do sometimes get flyers on the 1st shot/DA but that's because I lack the range time to be "unconciously" accurate with that first shot.

    Like I said, the Glock never pointed correctly for me . . . always high. The SIG (almost any SIG) points perfectly for me and is second only to my CZ P-01 or CZ75B. No thought required, just throw the handgun up and, like an extension of my arm, it's on target. This was really important for me because I don't shoot competition, I get to range to practice when I can, but I have a handgun with me at all times praying that I never have to use it to save my life or the lives of people I know and love . . . so a naturally pointing handgun is VERY important to me as it helps overcome the stress and adrenaline rush that I must assume will occur if I'm ever forced to use one in self defense.

    Glocks have a great reputation, especially in 9mm, and SIGs have a great reputation . . . and they both have earned it. I cannot honestly recommend one over the other. But I do hate the hype that Glocks have and constantly have arguments with the "gun guys" at my local Sportsman's Warehouse because they keep telling people that 1) They can shoot underwater, 2) It's impossible to rust a Glock and you don't need to clean them, or 3) If it doesn't fire you can always pull the trigger again. Geez, I hate hearing that stuff when the clerks are talking to people who are buying their first (or even 50th) gun.

    So, my totally worthless recommendation is:

    Try them before you buy them. Determine what you want to use it for. Get the one that works for you best. Then go out and buy the other ones you want. :) You can't go wrong either way and its purely a matter of what role you want this handgun to fulfill.

    Now if you want something really cool, I would recommend the Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 mag with a 7 1/2" barrel . . . oh . . . and in stainless, too. :what:
     
  22. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    MOT - thx for the thoughts ... post #94 or so above I announced I had decided, well for this stage! :rolleyes: I collect my 226ST on Thurday hopefully.!!

    I have tried Glocks that other IDPA guys use - I could adapt but... not yet. SIG's so far for me at least, have the edge I want.
     
  23. NMshooter

    NMshooter Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,251
    I think you made a good choice. Hope you enjoy it!
     
  24. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,338
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    NM - thx. I look forward to it considerably. When time I shall give feedback, tho to other SIG owners that will be probably totally boring!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice