God It's Nice To Be Able to Shoot On A Whim....In The House - A Little SIG ASP Super Target Work

[cslinger]

I may not have my own outdoor range but I have spent years building up my airguns and pellet stash and built houses with indoor airgun shooting in mind and it is just so nice to be able grab a gun, pop some pellets at 21'-55'. It continues to amaze me how much enjoyment I get from these things even during the best of times. They are a Godsend during times like these.

If you don't have yourself a good airgun.......git you some.

Tonight I was dorking around with my SIG ASP Super Target with some different pellets and managed this little group of 15 shots at around 21 feet offhand. (I know not 10M and certainly not Olympic material but last time I checked, neither am I, so I am happy.)

I wish I could give you some excuse for that one outside the group on the bottom like it was damaged pellet, or an air leak, or spider crawled up my leg........but alas tis' pure ineptitude on my part. I knew it was going wild before it left the barrel.

 

[Olon]

I've put several hundred through my daisy powerline pellet rifle over the past few days. No can is safe.

 

[Kookla]

@cslinger how's the new Sig been working out for you?

I've been finding that with my air pistols, if I throw one wild, it's all my fault

 

[cslinger]

Working wonderfully. It’s not my best air pistol but I find I am grabbing it more and more. I just like it’s feel and lines and it shoots pretty well. I don’t regret a penny I spent on it.

 

[Kookla]

I just picked up a Beeman P3, so far, so good.

You have a FAS 6004, I heard the Sig is a reworked one- how accurate is that?

I have a soft spot for the over lever ssp's.

 

[cslinger]

I just picked up a Beeman P3, so far, so good.

You have a FAS 6004, I heard the Sig is a reworked one- how accurate is that?

I have a soft spot for the over lever ssp's.

Yes, it’s fairly obvious the SIG is a repackages FAS 6004. That said the trigger and sights are far superior on the FAS. If you had somebody behind the FAS who isn’t me you could really make that thing do some amazing shooting.

I suspect the SIG is probably as mechanically accurate from some kind of rest but like I said is harder to shoot as well.

All that said shooting the two are completely different experiences. The FAS feels far more like a target gun where as the SIG feels more like a normal handgun.

 

[Kookla]

I've shot about 1k worth of pellets between my three air pistols during these past three weeks. Have about 300 through the P3 I got last week. It's not as refined as the Beeman P2 or HW75 I have, but still solid.

 

[cc-hangfire]

Wow! At first glance I thought it was firearms your were shooting inside and I was really jealous. With air guns, I’m just a little less jealous cause mine have to be shot in the back yard — but I have a plan percolating.

While sheltering-in I’ve pulled out the handgun replicas (Beretta 84 airsoft, SIG M17 pellet) and splurged to get a few more (SIG P365, Luger P08, & Mauser C96 BB guns). All CO2, but, man, what a hoot!

And what a delightful lunchtime break from working remotely at home. (I re-read this last sentence, and I sound almost English. I’ll have to cut back on watching Andy’s Airgun Reviews on YouTube!)

 

[cslinger]

Wow! At first glance I thought it was firearms your were shooting inside and I was really jealous

Yeah, you do that once and you walk with a limp for the rest of your life. Wives have no sense of humor or adventure.

 

[cslinger]

I've shot about 1k worth of pellets between my three air pistols during these past three weeks. Have about 300 through the P3 I got last week. It's not as refined as the Beeman P2 or HW75 I have, but still solid.

The P3/HW40 is no joke. It’s basically an HW75 stuffed into a tacticool shell. One thing I find with my HW40.........and your gonna laugh......and point........and make little girl jokes......and I approve. . That said I actually feel a little muzzle rise when shooting my HW40. Enough that I will usually throw them high.

 

[Kookla]

I notice muzzle rise with my P2 and Hw75. It's very minor, but there .

I got the P3 used with a bag full of replacement o-rings.

 

[tm255]

Tonight I was dorking around with my SIG ASP Super Target

Very timely post cslinger and I'm glad to see that you have a SIG ASP. I've been researching air pistols, I've seen some of your other threads, and was considering asking your opinion -- so let me toss out my questions in this thread and see what I can learn from you and others.

I have two goals, 1) Shooting at home while ranges are closed and 2) Developing better skill/speed in raising the pistol from the isosceles stance ready position, acquiring the sights, and hitting the target. Note that I have no interest in formal 10m bullseye, draw from holster, reloads, etc. I initially thought that my best bet would be a CO2 replica of my firearm but now I think that I would be better served by one of the higher quality single shots with the following characteristics:

1) Grip that is amenable to refining the two handed "combat" hold. This rules out the IZH46 type grips. I'm not sure if the HW75/P2, Avanti, and FAS 6004 grips would work or not.

2) Dry fire capability

3) Reliability and good customer service. I've read that the Weihrach pistols are very reliable, and I would think that the SIG would be backed by SIG CS. I don't know about FAS and Avanti.

4) Skillset that transfers to the firearm. Any sight and trigger practice is bound to be helpful, so this mainly applies to the HW45. I understand that it is more challenging to shoot accurately but I don't know if that means that it would be a better trainer for me. One source said that shooting it accurately requires a very, very light grip and that's not what I'm trying to develop with the firearm.

Anyway, given all the above I was leaning towards the HW45/P1 (depending on the "challenging" part) or the SIG, but have not found many online comparison reviews.

Appreciate any comments or suggestions!

 

[cslinger]

Very timely post cslinger and I'm glad to see that you have a SIG ASP. I've been researching air pistols, I've seen some of your other threads, and was considering asking your opinion -- so let me toss out my questions in this thread and see what I can learn from you and others.....
Appreciate any comments or suggestions!

I will try to answer and offer what meager knowledge I have.

The vast majority of my air pistols are for simple pleasure and more for accuracy then they are for training, if you will. My own personal opinion is if you are looking to practice and keep up your skills during the current unpleasantness then I would suggest a laser cartridge, your real gun and a good dry fire routine, conversely if you want a separate tool an Airsoft replica of your particular gun. Either of these will give you far, far more firearms training and skill building then any of my air pistols.

As for air my air pistols the SIG and the HW40 are the most "normal" pistol like if you will. The rest generally feel different enough from real firearms. You can dryfire SSP Gun’s and the HW45 can have the trigger reset to allow for a dry fire without fully cocking and shooting the pistol which you DO NOT want to do with any springer airgun.

The HW45/Beeman P1 platform has a 1911 grip but that is about where the similarity ends. Also a spring piston airgun recoils very differently then a firearm and requires a different technique. Yes a light touch is far better with spring piston air guns.

All airguns will teach you follow through and this will, in my experience translate to firearms. The reason is the pellet takes so long, relatively speaking, to get out of the bore.

All that said my suggestion is buy an air pistol like the SIG or HW etc. if you are looking to have a different kind of fun/shooting experience as well as one that can be enjoyed in your home.

If your goals are sight alignment, low ready to ready etc. etc. Go with your real gun and a dry fire routine, maybe supplemented by a laser cartridge and target. An airsoft replica will also be helpful here and will give you that slide blowback feeling.

Give me a second and I will post a picture of my current dry fire setup.

 

[cslinger]

Ok, I know this is swaying a little off topic but as I said I really believe dry fire will be more conducive to what you want to accomplish and I can certainly say it helps me.

I have a Laser Ammo set that allows me 9mm/.40/.45 setups and I have found it is awesome to help with that first shot. I also use it with a Laser Ammo target that allows for basic hits, a par time mode etc. and will REALLY help with that first shot on target speed. Currently I have been doing a lot of dry fire with my P30 as seen below. The set comes with rods that can screw into the cartridge to allow for attaching that red flag attachment at the end. While not strictly necessary it is a GREAT safety feature and I use it.

I also use an IPHONE program called Shot Veryifyer LT that uses the camera to pick up the laser hits on a target to give you hit locations. Works fairly well.

 

[H&R Glock]

I gave away my Remington pumper to my grand son. )*&%^%! Now I'm locked in and cold keeps me away from the range. Loaded 50 rounds of 357 mag out of boredom. Fired one out the back door into the woods to see if it felt right. That satisfied my need to burn powder for a while.
Maybe Michigan will warm up soon?

 

[tm255]

The vast majority of my air pistols are for simple pleasure and more for accuracy then they are for training, if you will. My own personal opinion is if you are looking to practice and keep up your skills during the current unpleasantness then I would suggest a laser cartridge, your real gun and a good dry fire routine, conversely if you want a separate tool an Airsoft replica of your particular gun. Either of these will give you far, far more firearms training and skill building then any of my air pistols.

As for air my air pistols the SIG and the HW40 are the most "normal" pistol like if you will. The rest generally feel different enough from real firearms. You can dryfire SSP Gun’s and the HW45 can have the trigger reset to allow for a dry fire without fully cocking and shooting the pistol which you DO NOT want to do with any springer airgun.

Thanks, good info and much appreciated! I'll need to reconsider some of my assumptions, mainly that shooting a nice pellet pistol would be a valuable supplement to dry fire (and probably more fun). Sounds like I should look more closely at laser trainers as well.

Good thing that I asked instead of dropping the coin on an HW45 after reading elsewhere that it is "a great firearms trainer."

 

[cslinger]

My guess is if you bought an HW45 you would have fallen into the trap most firearms shooters fall into with spring piston air guns. We tend to want to pick them up and shoot them like we do our firearms and then get frustrated or blame the gun for being so inaccurate when the reality is it’s a technique thing.

The thing with all spring piston air guns to some degree or another is that they recoil like a SOB and do so forwards/backwards/side to side etc. all that recoil and vibration combined with a pellet that is basically moving fairly leisurely out of the barrel means that if you try to control the recoil like a firearm you are going to throw the pellet in all kinds of random ways.

The key to shooting a spring piston type airgun is to hold it lightly and sort of let it recoil however it wants to and what basically happens is the pellet sort of leaves the gun at the same point of natural recoil leading to accurate and repeatable shooting. It’s very counter intuitive to a skilled firearms shooter.

What spring piston guns will tech you is trigger control and follow through which do pay dividends in firearm shooting.

SSP/PCP or any pneumatic gun takes the vast majority of recoil out of the equation but you are still contending with a relatively speaking slow projectile so it’s easy to over control them, throwing a pellet wild.

a decent C02 replica or Airsoft gun will lack as much inherent accuracy but do a very good job of simulating draw and fire, shoot and move etc. IMO their biggest drawback is they tend to have crappy triggers that don’t do a great job of replicating the real thing.

Hence bringing me full circle to my suggestion to develop a good SAFE dry fire routine with your actual gun. Knowing it’s trigger pull, it’s weight distribution etc. makes a huge difference, IMO, when shooting for real. I find it also sort of fools your brain into thinking there is no recoil so when shooting for real your brain doesn’t over compensate for its perceived recoil.

Again, please don’t take ANYTHING I say as gospel or even vaguely intelligible. I am just relating my personal experiences so YMMV.

Take care, shoot safe. Chris

 

[cslinger]

Sounds like I should look more closely at laser trainers as well.

Laser trainers can add immensely to the fun and provide some feedback but don’t get hung up on them and don’t pay attention to the laser. Pay attention to the front sight.

You might want to just try a simple dry fire routine, you may also be amazed at the dividends it pays on its own.

All that said I would NEVER deny another person the joy of new toys and whole heartedly suggest new airguns, new laser toys maybe a new gun too what the heck.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I was in walmart a few weeks (maybe months even) and they had all their pellet pistols deeply clearanced. I bought all they had. The most I paid was for a crossman bolt action thing that pumped and resembles a contender. I gave 17 bucks each for those. I did fire a few pellets in one of those in my basement (25 yards) and I was actually very impressed with the accuracy. Most of the guns were 10 dollars, a few were closer 5. I gifted some and Someday I'll make a few kids christmas or birthdays happy. Not so much for the parents though. I hadn't used a bb or pellet gun much in many years.

 

[tm255]

The key to shooting a spring piston type airgun is to hold it lightly and sort of let it recoil however it wants to and what basically happens is the pellet sort of leaves the gun at the same point of natural recoil leading to accurate and repeatable shooting. It’s very counter intuitive to a skilled firearms shooter.

What spring piston guns will tech you is trigger control and follow through which do pay dividends in firearm shooting.

Good explanation of the springer recoil and optimum hold.

The trigger control dividend is one of the assumptions that I was going on, that is, sight picture is sight picture and trigger control is trigger control regardless of the weapon -- the airgun seemed like it would be a fun medium to help develop those skills. Plus it is always great to have an excuse to buy a new toy!

You might want to just try a simple dry fire routine, you may also be amazed at the dividends it pays on its own.

Yes, I'm currently implementing a dry fire routine and consider it the cornerstone of practice. I thought the air pistol might be a useful adjunct and would add some fun and variety especially since there will be no live fire for a while.