Good Guy Intervenes to Defend Third Party

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Kleanbore

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A trained armed citizen with a firearm comes upon a man who is brutally beating a female. He intervenes while his wife calls 911. The attack is stopped, and the police arrive. No shots are fired.

The intervening citizen is handcuffed, taken to the police station, questioned, and released. His firearm is returned in short order.

The incident is recorded on video, which goes viral.

The attacker is arrested, charged, and convicted.

The victim tries to accuse the "good guy" with fabricating the story of the attack.

The wife does not actually report what she intended to in the 911 call.

The publicity causes great difficulty for the "good guy" in the aftermath.

Apparently the white horse he thought he rode in on was not obvious to others.


 
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Sticky stuff, domestics. Many times the victim will turn on the rescuer, verbally or physically; police find this on occasion.
If the good guy thought maybe the next punch was going to be victim's last, what choice did he have? Most people can't watch a beating on Youtube, much less in person.
A lot of domestic victims have tons of history with their abuser. Somebody intervening has no way of knowing that. If a fight, or beating between two people (I don't know) is happening, I may choose just to be a good witness, stay clear, and call 911. If the abuser had started shooting, the outcome could have been tragic.

It sounds uncaring, but abuse victims are often times in a relationship that they could have walked away from, yesterday, last week, last year... Placing myself in physical or legal jeopardy is not my first choice. Good intentions don't automatically mean a good outcome, or gratitude from anyone.
 
Kleenbore wrote:
He intervenes while his wife calls 911. The attack is stopped,

Whose wife? The female that was being beaten or the wife of the man who intervenes? This is not clear; particuarly when we read later:

The wife does not actually report what she intended to in the 911 call.

Also, how is "the attack stopped"? Is it by the man who intervenes pulling the attacker off the female or was it by the man who intervenes brandishing his gun?

I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the anecdote. The so-called "good guy" is very fortunate that he was not also arrested and convicted as he was acting outside (way outside, depending on the state) the scope of what a CHL/LTC license permits the holder to do. A license to carry a gun for self defense is just that; a license to carry for defense of ones self and one's loved ones. It does not confer police powers on the person who carries it.
 
No good deed goes unpunished.... In my 22 years on the street nothing was more dangerous than working a domestic fight/confrontation... On top of the high emotions involved (on both sides of the equation -victim/aggressor....) you just never knew the history between the folks involved when you were called to the scene... Not to mention that you'll rarely find an impartial witness of the events since all around you are family members or friends of the folks involved (and all parties perfectly willing to accuse whoever shows up of misconduct).

I'd strongly counsel anyone to "call it in" and only intervene if things get life threatening... even then, intervene at your own peril. Yes, I'm very glad to be out of police work these past 21 years. I saw some horrible things at domestic violence scenes years ago involving every level of society from the poorest to the wealthiest... that included straight, gay, or you pick-em "couples", kids vs parents - any combination you can imagine - and like Cracker Jacks... a surprise in every box.
 
hdwhit writes:

The so-called "good guy" is very fortunate that he was not also arrested and convicted as he was acting outside (way outside, depending on the state) the scope of what a CHL/LTC license permits the holder to do. A license to carry a gun for self defense is just that; a license to carry for defense of ones self and one's loved ones.

I suppose it's possible that this may be true in at least one state. In mine, it is only a license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm. There are no restrictions on whom such a carried weapon can be used to protect (there are other laws prohibiting the use of weapons to protect someone committing a criminal act from police or others who may be intervening.) I'd be surprised if the restrictions you cite are true in yours.

Also, in most states (including mine), a citizen can actually arrest a person committing a violent crime, or who has just been witnessed committing a violent crime and is in immediate flight from the scene of it. A license to carry a weapon or firearm is not required. The possession of such a license does not reduce or negate this "citizen's arrest" ability.

The strategic wisdom of effecting such an arrest or intervention, of course, is what is debatable here. While no victim of a domestic battery forfeits his/her rights to safety by being in the relationship, these situations are indeed fraught with issues that can turn ugly real fast, and in very unpredictable manners.
 
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The so-called "good guy" is very fortunate that he was not also arrested and convicted as he was acting outside (way outside, depending on the state) the scope of what a CHL/LTC license permits the holder to do. A license to carry a gun for self defense is just that; a license to carry for defense of ones self and one's loved ones. It does not confer police powers on the person who carries it.
I would caution that I've never heard of a CHL, LTC, LTCF, or whatever carry license or permit that confers ANY powers to the bearer, aside from -- literally -- the lawful right to carry that gun on his/her person outside their own property.

So saying that a CHL/LTC license permits you to defend someone -- even yourself -- is not correct. They merely allow you to have one specific object on your person which could be used as a defensive tool.

Your state's laws governing the lawful use of force determine what allowances are made, for whom, and under what circumstances, for using force and lethal force on another person. And while I'm not certain, I don't know of any states off the top of my head where the lawful use of force actions expressly stated in those laws apply ONLY to the individual who is using that force, or to their "loved ones."

More commonly they say something along the lines of "...or another, if that person would be lawfully allowed to use said force in defense of themselves."

In other words, yes, a legitimate defensive claim can be made if you were defending a stranger you saw about to be murdered, raped, etc. -- so long as that person would have been equally justified in using the same force you did, in defending themselves. If they had had the gun in their hands, could they have shot their assailant and been justified? If so, then you can be so as well. Generally speaking.
 
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The so-called "good guy" is very fortunate that he was not also arrested and convicted as he was acting outside (way outside, depending on the state) the scope of what a CHL/LTC license permits the holder to do .
Do you have a basis for that assertion?

A license to carry a gun for self defense is just that; a license to carry for defense of ones self and one's loved ones.
Most states provide for the use force or threat of force when necessary to protect any third person who would be entitled to use or threaten force himself.

Some are more limiting. The list may include certain relatives, a spouse, or perhaps servants, etc,

....It does not confer police powers on the person who carries it
True.

Nor did the citizen exercise any alleged "police powers" on this case.

Had the perp decided to not stay for the police, the actual use of deadly force would not have been lawful.

Some other states provide for the use of force, up to including deadly force, for the prevention of certain felonies.
 
FWIW I'd call 911 and be a good witness
The citizen explained why he opted otherwise under the situation at hand.

And, of course, he had no reason to assume that what he came upon was a DV situation.

Usually much wiser to call, but he and his wife judged otherwise based on what they witnessed.
 
This is a slippery slope to be sure. Since obtaining my permission slip/permit to legally carry several years ago it has made me so cautious and really think differently in this type of situation, all situations actually.
I was at a gas station a few weeks ago filling my truck and I am watching the lady in the car at the pump in front of me with her kids when a dood pulls up and parks out of place and right next to her car. He gets out, music blaring and door left open and begins cursing at her and acting very aggressively towards her. He was in her face, chest bumping her and spitting when he was yelling. He was pissed.
I thought of possibly putting my gun in my console safe if I had to confront him. I can take a beating but I sure don't want to have to shoot someone because he is treating his woman how she likes to be treated. (Only what if- I do not know this is how she likes to be treated so don't flame me) But I do know a very good friend of ours was beaten, and I mean beaten not just knocked around regularly by her husband who I worked with off and on at job sites- we even hid her at our house for weeks and she went back to him every single time. We broke off our friendship with them because we could not stand the abuse and her not only taking it but not wanting to do anything about it. When I talked to the husband about it, he thought it was funny and told me she likes it and I should see them in the bedroom. Uh- no thanks!

Before I was able to carry a gun my thought process would have been different- now I am reluctant, or hesitant to get involved in a DV situation for fear of A) biting off more than I can chew and being forced to draw my gun to defend my own life and B) what if this is their relationship? I am probably 30 years older than that guy was- I don't want to or like to fight but that seems where all of these things end up and the 3rd party usually gets the shaft for butting in.
The guy yelled and stomped around for a while and went away- what if he went after her physically? Unless he is going to obviously kill her the gun is not an option- he was much larger than me so if things went really bad, it would be me that needed help. I did have my phone in hand and 911 dialed on the screen waiting to push send. I figured worst case I would push send and take the phone with me and hope for the best. This type of situation is best left for the police- BTW all of the other customers did nothing- got in their cars and drove off- one guy pulled up to the pump across from us and got out only to get right back in and drive away.
As it all played out, like all "tough guys", he yelled and huffed and puffed and got in his car and left. The woman was laughing out loud as she got back in her car with her kids and drove over to wait in the car wash line like it was an everyday occurrence. So- I have to assume in this case, this was their relationship and I would have REALLY been wrong to intervene.
What has society come to where this has become acceptable to treat another person like this and with kids around... and to not be able to do anything about it.
 
Domestic stuff STINKS & isn't always as it appears. FWIW I'd call 911 and be a good witness.
That's easy to say after the fact, but during the moment it is REALLY hard to determine what all is going on.

What is certain is that some dude is beating a woman. Many people, whether armed or not, will intervene on that fact alone.

I would bet that if our Good Samaritan had known how the victim would act after stopping the beating, he would have done it differently.
 
="Corpral_Agarn, post: 10516745, member: 195091".....during the moment it is REALLY hard to determine what all is going on..
Yep.

What is certain is that some dude is beating a woman. Many people, whether armed or not, will intervene on that fact alone.
If you are right, then many people lack sufficient knowledge and judgment to manage their own risks prudently.

I would bet that if our Good Samaritan had known how the victim would act after stopping the beating, he would have done it differently.
He has already told us some things he would do differently, and they are not dependent on any knowledge about what the victim would do afterward.
 
I couldn't begin to guess the number of domestics I worked when I was working patrol. They are dangerous, unpredictable, dynamic situations and my threshold for intervening when off duty and now that I am retired is very, very high. Basically someone has to be within imminent danger of losing life, limb or eyesight before I am going to do anything more then call 911.

I broke up too many physical fights during domestics that ended up with having to fight and arrest both parties before it was all said and done. I've taken too many people to jail and found the "victim" waiting there with bond money.

It's definitely not worth the physical and legal peril you place yourself in by intervening in a domestic.
 
I couldn't begin to guess the number of domestics I worked when I was working patrol. They are dangerous, unpredictable, dynamic situations and my threshold for intervening when off duty and now that I am retired is very, very high. Basically someone has to be within imminent danger of losing life, limb or eyesight before I am going to do anything more then call 911.

I broke up too many physical fights during domestics that ended up with having to fight and arrest both parties before it was all said and done. I've taken too many people to jail and found the "victim" waiting there with bond money.

It's definitely not worth the physical and legal peril you place yourself in by intervening in a domestic.
Good advice for anyone, sworn officer or otherwise.
 
My personal feeling is that intervening on behalf of others is not one size fits all. Big difference between a terror attack, a small child being attacked, a uniformed LEO or firefighter being attacked, vs other types of situations.
 
I would caution that I've never heard of a CHL, LTC, LTCF, or whatever carry license or permit that confers ANY powers to the bearer, aside from -- literally -- the lawful right to carry that gun on his/her person outside their own property.

So saying that a CHL/LTC license permits you to defend someone -- even yourself -- is not correct. They merely allow you to have one specific object on your person which could be used as a defensive tool.

You may consider it splitting hairs, but read through Kansas's CCHL laws and related statutes, and you might not be able to assert the above any longer. While the Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act, in itself, doesn't spell out lawful use of force, it DOES cite the approved CCHL class requirement including Kansas use of force law review, and our REQUIRED lesson plan includes the conference of many powers, implied to ALL citizens, but explicitly required to be explained to all CCHL applicants as a part of their prerequisite training course. So the Kansas CCHL, in and of itself, doesn't confer "powers" to the bearer, the simple attribute of being a citizen of Kansas confers many, many explicit powers for personal defense, that of others, and that of properties.

Our state doesn't include these statues for use of force in the KSPFPA, simply because ALL Kansans are afforded these rights by law, not just those so licensed to carry a concealed handgun. And of course, anyone over the age of 21 who is not prohibited from possessing a firearm can carry openly or concealed without a permit, so the same rights and protections are applicable.

Much of our state statute language is around "presumption of reasonableness," which implies if your actions follow these guidelines, said actions are presumed reasonable, and the actor is protected by law from criminal and civil action. Actions NOT qualifying as presumed reasonable may still be deemed reasonable (Kansas's word for "justifiable") , and the actor still absolved AFTER legal actions are taken, but they wouldn't have the same "up front" protections which prevented pursuit of legal action.

A few statutes of interest included in the KS CCHL instructor lesson plan, as requirements to satisfy the application for a KS CCHL under the Kansas Personal & Family Protection act, pertaining to conference of lawful use of force powers to the bearer of firearms:

KSA 21-5228 Private Person Arrest:
(a) A private person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful arrest is justified in the use of any force which such person would be justified in using if such person were summoned or directed by a law enforcement officer to make such arrest, except that such person is justified in the use of deadly force only when such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to such person or another.

KSA 21-5225 Use of force in defense of property other than a dwelling:
A person who is lawfully in possession of property other than a dwelling, place of work or occupied vehicle is justified in the use of force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating an unlawful interference with such property. Only such use of force as a reasonable person would deem necessary to prevent or terminate the interference may intentionally be used.

I have read of a "5225 case" in which a home owner left his dwelling to interrupt some guys who had broken into his shed, arming himself as he left the house. Because he was within his rights to use force to prevent and terminate unlawful interference of his property, and because the burglars escalated and became aggressive when he tried to rid them from his shed, he was presumed reasonable in shooting 3 of them, killing 2 on site. This was NOT a "castle doctrine" case, as the owner left the security of his dwelling to protect his property, and was not strictly a "stand your ground" or "no duty to retreat" case, as the instigation of the interaction was the choice of the homeowner. But because under 5225 he was justified to prevent the interference of his property, he was granted presumption of reasonableness in the shootings, and protected by law from civil and criminal action.

The text of KSA 2011 21-5222 is rather lengthy, but it DOES spell out the use of force in defense of another person, which is NOT required to be a relative or spouse, AND empowers the intervening citizen to use appropriate and reasonable force, effectively gauged on the perception of the intervening party that the 3rd party would be justified to use such degree of force in their own defense. (In other words, if you were in their shoes, if reasonable persons believe you would be justified to shoot in your own defense, you are then justified to shoot in THEIR defense).

21-5223 Use of force in defense of a dwelling... If memory serves, this one even extends to consider an occupied vehicle, owned by the user of force, however our state has established precedence the user of force need not own the vehicle to be presumed reasonable, as we've upheld a case where a group attacked a passenger in a vehicle, after which the passenger was granted presumption of reasonableness, even though the language suggests it needed to be HIS vehicle to be so granted...

Again, none of these are necessarily powers granted by the KS CCHL itself, but we're required by the KSPFPA to make our CCHL students aware of these "powers they already have."
 
You may consider it splitting hairs, but read through Kansas's CCHL laws and related statutes, and you might not be able to assert the above any longer. While the Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act, in itself, doesn't spell out lawful use of force, it DOES cite the approved CCHL class requirement including Kansas use of force law review, and our REQUIRED lesson plan includes the conference of many powers, implied to ALL citizens, but explicitly required to be explained to all CCHL applicants as a part of their prerequisite training course. So the Kansas CCHL, in and of itself, doesn't confer "powers" to the bearer, the simple attribute of being a citizen of Kansas confers many, many explicit powers for personal defense, that of others, and that of properties.

Our state doesn't include these statues for use of force in the KSPFPA, simply because ALL Kansans are afforded these rights by law, not just those so licensed to carry a concealed handgun. And of course, anyone over the age of 21 who is not prohibited from possessing a firearm can carry openly or concealed without a permit, so the same rights and protections are applicable.

Much of our state statute language is around "presumption of reasonableness," which implies if your actions follow these guidelines, said actions are presumed reasonable, and the actor is protected by law from criminal and civil action. Actions NOT qualifying as presumed reasonable may still be deemed reasonable (Kansas's word for "justifiable") , and the actor still absolved AFTER legal actions are taken, but they wouldn't have the same "up front" protections which prevented pursuit of legal action.

A few statutes of interest included in the KS CCHL instructor lesson plan, as requirements to satisfy the application for a KS CCHL under the Kansas Personal & Family Protection act, pertaining to conference of lawful use of force powers to the bearer of firearms:

KSA 21-5228 Private Person Arrest:


KSA 21-5225 Use of force in defense of property other than a dwelling:


I have read of a "5225 case" in which a home owner left his dwelling to interrupt some guys who had broken into his shed, arming himself as he left the house. Because he was within his rights to use force to prevent and terminate unlawful interference of his property, and because the burglars escalated and became aggressive when he tried to rid them from his shed, he was presumed reasonable in shooting 3 of them, killing 2 on site. This was NOT a "castle doctrine" case, as the owner left the security of his dwelling to protect his property, and was not strictly a "stand your ground" or "no duty to retreat" case, as the instigation of the interaction was the choice of the homeowner. But because under 5225 he was justified to prevent the interference of his property, he was granted presumption of reasonableness in the shootings, and protected by law from civil and criminal action.

The text of KSA 2011 21-5222 is rather lengthy, but it DOES spell out the use of force in defense of another person, which is NOT required to be a relative or spouse, AND empowers the intervening citizen to use appropriate and reasonable force, effectively gauged on the perception of the intervening party that the 3rd party would be justified to use such degree of force in their own defense. (In other words, if you were in their shoes, if reasonable persons believe you would be justified to shoot in your own defense, you are then justified to shoot in THEIR defense).

21-5223 Use of force in defense of a dwelling... If memory serves, this one even extends to consider an occupied vehicle, owned by the user of force, however our state has established precedence the user of force need not own the vehicle to be presumed reasonable, as we've upheld a case where a group attacked a passenger in a vehicle, after which the passenger was granted presumption of reasonableness, even though the language suggests it needed to be HIS vehicle to be so granted...

Again, none of these are necessarily powers granted by the KS CCHL itself, but we're required by the KSPFPA to make our CCHL students aware of these "powers they already have."
Very interesting. And beautifully reasonable! :)
 
KSA 21-5225 Use of force in defense of property other than a dwelling:
I have read of a "5225 case" in which a home owner left his dwelling to interrupt some guys who had broken into his shed, arming himself as he left the house. Because he was within his rights to use force to prevent and terminate unlawful interference of his property, and because the burglars escalated and became aggressive when he tried to rid them from his shed, he was presumed reasonable in shooting 3 of them, killing 2 on site. This was NOT a "castle doctrine" case, as the owner left the security of his dwelling to protect his property, and was not strictly a "stand your ground" or "no duty to retreat" case, as the instigation of the interaction was the choice of the homeowner. But because under 5225 he was justified to prevent the interference of his property, he was granted presumption of reasonableness in the shootings, and protected by law from civil and criminal action.
Was any of that spelled out in an appellate ruling that addressed the use of deadly force, or are you making assumptions about why the property owner may have been found justified in the use of deadly force in that instance?

The law makes the following distinction between what you quoted and the justification of the use of deadly force:

"(b) A person is justified in the use of deadly force to prevent or terminate unlawful entry into or attack upon any dwelling, place of work or occupied vehicle if such person reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or another."

You quoted this:

"A person who is lawfully in possession of property other than a dwelling, place of work or occupied vehicle is justified in the use of force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating an unlawful interference with such property. Only such use of force as a reasonable person would deem necessary to prevent or terminate the interference may intentionally be used."​

Different justification, different level of force excused....

The law in most states reads similarly.

In some cases, people who have headed out in a perfectly lawful manner, but who have then found that the ensuing confrontation involved deadly force and have put forth a defense of justification based on self defense, have been successful,

In others they have failed and have been convicted in court.

That's one risk. The other entails that of being shot.

If what you have read about was the finding of trial court, it has no precedential meaning, and it should not be relied upon as an interpretaion of the law.

The risks inherent in a "private person arrest" are such that trying one is very rarely prudent.
 
@Kleanbore - you have not copied the same statute as I did. The language is the same, but that which you copied is from a different statute. Not being on my computer, but from my phone, I can't copy over right now, but I assure you, those sections I posted as quotes were copied directly from the statute as printed in our instructors guide, revision of July 2016, which is when we update annually.
 
I assure you, those sections I posted as quotes were copied directly from the statute as printed in our instructors guide, revision of July 2016, which is when we update annually.
No argument. I quoted directly from your post.

It's just that you left out the section on deadly force.
 
So the Kansas CCHL, in and of itself, doesn't confer "powers" to the bearer, the simple attribute of being a citizen of Kansas confers many, many explicit powers for personal defense, that of others, and that of properties.

Most states that have laws providing for the use of force in defense of others and citizens arrest do in fact allow the citizen to act with the same powers a peace officer may use when a crime is committed in his presence. However....and it's a huge however, none of them cloak the citizen with the sovereign immunity that they give a peace officer. These statutes may protect the citizen who acts in defense of others or to foil a crime in progress from criminal charges, but the citizen is completely on his own in civil court. When a peace officer uses force in the line of duty the state is liable for his actions. He is not held personally liable unless his actions were so egregious that a court strips him of sovereign immunity.

If you use force in the defense of yourself, your property or others, you and you you alone are personally liable in civil court. The decision to act is much easier to make when it's your life or the life of a loved one in peril, but when you intervene in a domestic and if you had to use deadly force it would be really ironic and also pretty likely that would find yourself sued by the "victim" you saved because your actions deprived them of that person's company, affection and income. And if you prevailed in court you would most likely be out the cost of a nice home in legal fees.

Peace officers are protected (in most cases) from this because the nature of their work requires them to act in these situations. A private citizen has no duty to act and while acting may be morally and legally correct, it is very likely to have severe consequences in our civil court system.

While many states have Good Samaritan laws protecting citizen who would give first aid at the scene of an accident or CPR to someone who was having a cardiac event, there are no such laws protecting the private citizen who uses force (any force, not just deadly force) in defense of others.

I'm not saying one should never act because they might (probably will be) sued, I'm saying that we all need to be aware of the fact that along with the good citizen award the mayor gives you at the next city council meeting there will most likely be a subpoena to appear in civil court and prove that your actions were not only legal under the self defense statutes of your state, but they were in fact so justifiable that a jury of 6 or 12 citizens who weren't there can decide that yes, you did indeed make the right split second decision and the plaintiff is not entitled to everything you have and most of your future income because your actions deprived them of the company of a loved one.
 
What tends to separate Kansas's statutes from the laws of other states, the statutes I referenced are within our "presumed reasonableness" code.

So while other states use these "rules" once things go to court to determine rightfulness of the action, kansas's presumed reasonableness codes are effectively a step prior in the cycle - if at site, any of the statutes apply, the actions cannot go to court, criminal or civil. If the statutes are NOT satisfied, it is not a "go straight to jail card," it's a "now it's in the hands of the courts." Effectively, we have pre-established "conditions" which are protected from falling upon opinion of a given court. If X happened, you're deemed rightful and absolved before the courts ever get their hands on it. If X didn't happen, then you're at the mercy of the court. So what might be guidance towards convictions or liabilities to jurors in other states is guidance to officers and DA's in KS on whether the same would even granted a case.
 
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