Got Pulled over By 4 cops today while carting (CA)

[SoCalShooter]

It definetly does not sound routine but we are talking about LA county here. Aint nothing routine around there. Personally I have never been pulled over by more than one officer and in the 3 times I have been pulled over only once did more than 1 officer approach my car. They were always polite and courteous. In fact I was left alone 2 out of three times with no ticket, the third time was a speed trap no way I was getting out of that one, I knew it and so did the cop. I dont blame cops for being a little paranoid , that little amount of paranoia keeps you sharp and alive.

Getting out of the car was not wrong but not the best idea. There is no law that says when you are pulled over that you cannot exit your vehicle to talk to the officer, most cops will tell you though it makes them a little suspicious and its best to stay in the vehicle. He complied with the officers and all he got was the ticket, obviously they did not do a full vehicle search which at that point of you granting them consent they were able to do. (ONe of the reasons I lock my trunk from the interior).

Overall it seems at first read that its a little out of ordinary but for those of you who dont live in California and have not been to or live in LA county I dont believe you have a grasp on the situation out here. Cops have to be overly careful to protect themselves and their families, this is the state where frivilous gun laws and lawsuites run rampant.

 

[bogie]

They couldn't tell you owned firearms by your license. That's probably the first thing they ask everyone, in hopes that someone incriminates themselves.

They were fishing, and you swallowed the bait.

1) NO permission to search - repeat after me "My friend who is a lawyer says to never give anyone permission to search my vehicle or house without a warrant." That should be good enough for them.

2) Don't drive like that - Indicates a lack of situational awareness. Someone coulda come along and plowed right into you.

3) These cops are NOT your friends. Doesn't matter you may know 'em from a range. They'd HAPPILY take you in and book you, to be strip searched, and stripped of your rights.

 

[John C]

Razorburn;

I may have missed the number of cars vs. number of officers. However, you realize that OF COURSE they boxed him in to prevent him from running. If there were that many officers/cars onscene, wouldn't that be the correct course of action? The purpose of the stop is to contain the violator so a citation can be issued.

I doubt the officer's gun was "unbuckled" or in any way prepared for shooting other than normal. Almost all officers' guns are contained in retention holsters, with two or more separate retention devices so the gun cannot be easily snatched from the holster by others. Of course the officer was ready to shoot. He is approaching a car with an unknown person inside. His attention is focused on the driver in preparation for the contact.

He and his car weren't "searched" in the 4th amendment sense; the officers were most likely conducting a "protective sweep" to for their own safety. This is specifically allowed under caselaw (forget the case). Again, routine. It may not have happened to you, but what part of town do you live in? I wonder where this stop took place? At what time of day?

I mean, Geez, a bunch officers crowd their buddies at a traffic stop, probably annoying the initiating officers, and people get bent out of shape. Even look behind a Denny's at 3am? Yep, there's like 10 patrol cars there. That pisses people off, too. I don't understand. Officers take a lunch break just like everyone else, when it's not busy at work. Just like your job, officers congregate around the water cooler a little bit, too. Nothing to get bent out of shape about.

-John

 

[John C]

Bogie;

No, in california your handgun registration can be pulled up by running name and DOB. This is widely known.

-John

 

[razorburn]

I don't understand what you're trying to say, John. Are you still trying to say that the action taken for this traffic stop is routine and normal? All we're pointing out is the obvious, that he was treated like a criminal, with evidence that he was treated that way because he was a gun owner. If you're trying to say that treating everyone this way is OK in Socal because of heavy crime level there, then you're not really disagreeing with us on anything, but going off on some tangent all your own.

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this, but I've a natural tendency to correct people and I'm unable to let things slide, even when I should. I'm talking about points that were part of your off topic tangent.... I want to say something about them. I don't much like talking to police apologists. But I have a feeling that if I correct some of the things you said as an aside, you'll steer the conversation towards that tangent, and again, won't clarify whatever it was you were trying to say. So I'll put it in parenthesis. Please try to remember what our line of conversation is, that these points aren't relevant to that conversation until you clarify what it is you're trying to say and how your original points were supposed to enforce that.

(You realize that if they were in fact, just stopping by to BS with their fellow officer and were merely observers as you claimed, they wouldn't have been actively participating in boxing in someone for a measly traffic violation. They shouldn't have had to call that many officers onto the scene. It was just unwarranted suspicion against Silverlance just because he was a gun owner.

If silverlance is believed, he states that the officer had his gun unbuckled when he approached him. The officer was preparing for a shootout. Thus, more evidence that he was treating silverlance like a criminal because they knew he had guns.

He and his car weren't "searched" in the 4th amendment sense; the officers were most likely conducting a "protective sweep" to for their own safety.

It doesn't matter what you call it, if you're going into someone's car looking through their belongings, it is a search. You can call it fluffy bunny easter hunt if you want. But it's still a search. Now, none of us are claiming his 4th amendment rights were violated. Because silverlance consented to it. But it's still a search.)


I really don't know what you're trying to say, John. We're saying the guy was treated like a criminal, and you've said nothing to refute that. I don't know what you're disagreeing with us about. What you've said to justify their behavior, just is statements that enforce the idea that treating everyone you meet as a criminal during things as simple as a traffic stop is routine in LA.

 

[silverlance]

Thanks, guys for all the helpful tips. I'll remember them and hope I never have to use them. I haven't been given a ticket in nearly ten years (this is my 2nd ticket - the first was 3 days after I got my license when I was 17... I made an illegal u-turn looking for parking at the beach), so I'm rather dejected about the whole deal.

1. Without a doubt, the cop knew from running my plate that I owned guns. I could hear something about firearms and my name on the police computer speakers. As CA has handgun registration, it is not surprising that they knew right away. I have an HSC, an 03 FFL, an AW permit (for an AR15 that was stolen), and several handguns registered to me.

Indeed, I recently received a letter from Rocky Delgaillo, the city attorney general, which basically threatened me with civil action should my guns one day wind up in someone else's possession without my having put them through DROS. I'll put the letter up later... it basically is a veiled threat to keep my guns from being stolen, straw sold, borrowed, or else.

2. I did not actually try to get out of the car. I opened the car door, and stupidly stuck my head out like a chicken in a coop. I visually saw him unbuckle his handgun strap and I was ordered to remain in the car, close the door, and put my hands on the steering wheel. The police officers that arrived boxed me in and arranged themselves so that they could shoot me if I did anything (they were very careful to keep their fire lanes clear. My car was trapped against the sidewalk by the 3rd car.

3. I guess in retrospect I should have refused to let them search my car, even if it was only the cabin. I'd always been told by RKBA people at the range that I should always refuse search, but it seemed like the best course of action to take - it seemed like a "you let me do this quickly and we'll let you go" kind of thing. I sure hope it wasn't a trick to get me friendly like to let them find something incriminating. He really did not open the trunk but he did poke around the glove compartment. I have had bad experiences with cops - to me, there are cops, and then there are pigs. Cops are the ones who uphold the peace and write tickets, pigs are the ones who believe the the populace are childlike, an inferior race, and therefore must be disciplined vigorously by a vigilant police force lest they disturb the status quo. But I would like to think that pigs are the exception.

--- as for laws.

1. sniper scopes, or night vision scopes, are banned in the state of california. you can look this one up, i am certain of this. it's in the same category as cane swords, shuriken, and pepper spray over 2 ounces. possession is illegal (unless maybe grandfathered); that is why companies like cheaperthandirt will not sell ATNs to CA.

2. armor piercing ammo is such a stupid, f-ed up subject in cal that I'm not going to go into details about it on a public forum. suffice it to say that there is a ban on AP, whatever that is, and that the looseness and military incorrectness of the state's AP definition would render nearly every shooter a felon. i will also say that green tip ss109 is not AP. Black tip IS.

3. magazines. don't get caught with an "LEO ONLY" marked normal cap.

4. loaded magazines are a no-no. magazines in the magazine well are a no-no. fuzzy area on #2, but in the HSC book it is expressly forbidden.

5. etc: many things, but one example - it is illegal to have any ammoin the same container as a firearm. so if you have 1 9mm in the case, you are doing something illegal. it is fuzzy concerining ammo in pouches in the same case or on the outside of the case.

Thanks guys again for all the info, especially idrivesafely.com and you all for trying to cheer me up. I do feel much better now.

I would love to move but I don't know of a place that needs a teacher who has specialized in working with kids in language development intervention programs. these kids are often involved in messed up families & have family members or themselves embroiled in gangs and/or drugs. if anyone knows of a good gun friendly place that needs these teachers, let me know. especially if you would be willing to show me around if i came over to your city during my vacation in april. i make 42K and don't indulge in very many luxuries right now, so it wouldn't be very difficult to meet my needs.


good shooting, all,
kev

 

[Intune]

Hate to say but that looks almost like a felony stop in TN. Car boxed in, searched? Holster unbuckled? Outta the car all crossed up? Hell, in my neck of the woods if the officer has the heel of his hand on the butt of his gun you best be on your good behavior. If he pops the snap you are really pushing his buttons somehow. They respect us, we respect them. You knew them & they gave you a ticket? Dang, I would've popped the trunk & invited them to check out the new 30rd waffle mags I got for my SAR 1. CA is a different planet than the U.S.

 

[Cosmoline]

and I said, "Go ahead..." .

THIS IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA. Esp. in jurisdictions where any little technical violation regarding your arms and ammo can land you a felony conviction. Never consent!

I guess in retrospect I should have refused to let them search my car, even if it was only the cabin. I'd always been told by RKBA people at the range that I should always refuse search, but it seemed like the best course of action to take - it seemed like a "you let me do this quickly and we'll let you go" kind of thing.

The whole song and dance about getting you out of the car, treating you like a criminal, getting other officers there, having arms ready, etc. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OFFICER SAFETY!!!! The only reason they do that is to INTIMIDATE YOU INTO GIVING THEM CONSENT! On any stop where they hope to make an arrest, CONSENT IS THE GOAL. CONSENT IS THE MANTRA DRILLED INTO THEIR POINTY LITTLE HEADS BY THE DA! They will do everything short of sticking a Glock in you mouth to get it. They will lie. They will cheat. They will steal. They will pretend to be your friend. They will chat with you about gun ranges. They might even mention how they think the state gun laws are stupid! And the law says they can do all these things. But once you give consent, they can use damn near anything they find or plant in your car or house against you. Don't be an idiot. They're not there for g-d tea and cake, people! YOU DON'T CALL FOUR COPS TO A SCENE AND HAVE A MAN OUT OF HIS CAR FOR A FRIENDLY CHAT!! WAKE THE HELL UP!

The only time I'd ever suggest giving consent is if you've consulted with an attorney and he tells you it's to your advantage. Otherwise, never do it.

 

[silverlance]

thanks, cosmo. I will never make that mistake again. thank god they didn't find anything. i suppose it is fairly messed up that I feel like I should thank them for not opening up my trunk and sticking me with frivolous technical convicitions. i guess it's like gas prices.. you keep paying $3 / gal long enough you bake the oil company cookies when they decide to charge you "only" $2.50.

oh, and here's the letter from rocky.

tell me what you guys think.

 

[Parker Dean]

What happened was not a normal traffic stop. At least not here in TX.

Come on down here to South Texas and travel the 77 and 281 highways for a few days and see how many traffic stops there are AND how many have the occupants standing off to one side while the officer searches the vehicle.

I can tell you it's a lot and every single one. I see it almost every day.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yup, it's getting a lot more common. Cops today are trained to use the "ordinary traffic stop" as a dragnet to make arrests. BE PREPARED!

 

[John C]

Razorburn;

Is there any evidence that the initial officers "called for backup?" It sounded to me like the second through 4th unit arrive shortly after the stop began, otherwise silverlance would've been out of the car already. However, I could be wrong about this. Usually backup takes a few minutes to arrive, and a two-man unit wouldn't typically call for backup in a carstop situation that wasn't an actual fight in progress. And yes, those officers would "help out" the initial officer for the duration of the stop. It just common courtesy. Then they'll chat about the game, whatever.

Un-buckling or buckling, not really relevant. The officer can adjust his equipment however s/he thinks it needs to be. If the gun wasn't draw, the officer wasn't expecting a gunfight. The secondary officer would've had the shotgun out. Finally, the assisting officers wouldn't have boxed the violators vehicle is it was a felony carstop. Can someone say crossfire?

I guess what I'm really trying to say, Razorburn, is that silverlance is in LA. Cops in LA deal with really bad mofos everyday, and it's not pretty for anyone involved. When cops there deal with hard core felons, they develop tactics to deal with it. Silverlance obviously got the 'light' touch from these officers, who appeared to have been courteous. Therefore, the situation appears that he was not considered a criminal at any time in the process. If you want to see how real bad dudes are dealt with, by necessity, watch the evening news for the end of the day's televised chase.

I agree that by the standards of most of the rest of the nation, silverlance was jacked up. But not by LA standards. Not by a long shot.

-John

 

[Dmack_901]

I didn't see a stop sign today and stumbled at 12mph over a stop sign today. It was totally my fault, I tried to stop, then realized that it would be hopeless, and so I just let go the brake and coasted over it. Just then I turned my head and saw the copper look up and go, "Hey..."

Let's just say that at the end of this paragraph, I was under the belief that your vehicle hit and continued to run over a stop sign.

 

[Lucky]

That's what I thought! Then I saw California, and 'Hey, they don't have icy roads, he's pretty nonchalant for driving over a sign!'

 

[thexrayboy]

Just another traffic stop in LA LA land, SNAFU. I've been pulled over in So.Cal more than once. When you commute 30-40 k miles a year it's an occupational hazard. Every time it happened the only thing i could think of was "cripes, if these guys had been alive 600+ years ago they would have worked for Torquemada".

 

[silverlance]

for folks who don't live in CA, here's what we deal with.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Silverlance

Well, sir, the schools over the mountain are hiring.

You get tired of all the red tape, we'll be waiting for you.

Bummer on the traffic stop. I have found politeness goes a long way.

The most potentially nasty traffic stop I ever had occurred in Phoenix. Lots of miles per hour over the limit. Lots. "No, sir, I did not see you. Absolutely, sir. Well, sir, I just started work at the Supreme Court this week (show badge), and didn't want to be late. My mistake." Wrote me up for wasting fuel.

We have your new AR15 over here waiting for you to pick it up.

Just show your Nevada driver's license.

 

[Combat-wombat]

They couldn't tell you owned firearms by your license. That's probably the first thing they ask everyone, in hopes that someone incriminates themselves.

Listening to the police radio in my town, I've heard this happen before. They actually only need your license plate number.

What happens, is they'll run a registration check on a gun owner by radioing in the license plate number, and it's usually "Returns (registration status-current/expired) for a (vehicle description) to so and so at such and such address, be advised, a (gun model) is registered to subject."

I wasn't aware of this the first time I heard it on the scanner, and it was pretty shocking to me. Just another example of what Californians have to put up with.

 

[Soybomb]

It was very nice of them to be friendly, and not treat me like a criminal just because I owned guns.

Therefore, the situation appears that he was not considered a criminal at any time in the process.

You california people have a funny way of treating people who aren't criminals.

 

[Rumpled]

Just how in the heck is it that Rocky and LAPD got ahold of records showing you bought a gun?
I know DOJ has them, but didn't know they were sharing them w/ others.

That looks awful fishy to me and calls for a look-see I think.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Registered

In Kali, all handguns are registered.

Run the plate. Get the name & DoB with SSN.

Run the name, DoB, SSN. Check warrants. Check license status. Check for ownership of battleships, bombers, submarines, tanks, ICBMs, and handguns.

Piece of cake.

 

[ScotZ]

Man.....After reading this. I am scared, if they put up with that crap in California then pretty soon the rest of the country will be expected to put up with stuff like that. What is happening to this country ? I'm still not over the "illegal to spank" your child thing thats going on there now.

Those other seven cops could have been helping solve a crime that had already been commitedYet it is not considered reasonable ,rational thought to have them SOLVING crime. Just keep that "fine" money rolling in. Sad commentary on our LEO's priorities

 

[CZRyan]

Just wondering ?

So, what range did he (the cop) suggest?
Man! I need to be more careful, I often carry my ammo (sometimes loaded in the mags, saves time) in the same range bag as my pistol. The ammo and gun are only separated by the gun sleeve/compartment...I think that is technically a violation. I need to check.

I shoot at Oak Tree, Angeles, Priu, and the BRRC ranges.

Sorry about the ticket,

CZryan
Simi Valley

 

[razorburn]

Is there any evidence that the initial officers "called for backup?"

Jeez. It is getting off on your off-topic tangent as predicted. I'll make one more comment and ignore whatever other diversions you mention. The answer is yes. If 3 more cop cars showed up and actively participated in detaining silverlance, it's very probable that they were called for. One more car showed up, yeah, it could be coincidence and they just happened to be passing through...but if 3 more show up, at almost the same time, that's no coincidence.

I guess what I'm really trying to say, Razorburn, is that silverlance is in LA. Cops in LA deal with really bad mofos everyday, and it's not pretty for anyone involved. When cops there deal with hard core felons, they develop tactics to deal with it. Silverlance obviously got the 'light' touch from these officers, who appeared to have been courteous. Therefore, the situation appears that he was not considered a criminal at any time in the process. If you want to see how real bad dudes are dealt with, by necessity, watch the evening news for the end of the day's televised chase.

I agree that by the standards of most of the rest of the nation, silverlance was jacked up. But not by LA standards. Not by a long shot.

Ok. So you are saying that LA cops treat everyone they encounter during even the most basic traffic stops like criminals. You didn't have anything to say to refute what the rest of us were talking about. Silverlance was treated like a criminal. There's no L.A. standards for courtesy, buddy. Respect and courtesy are a general human affect. If you go to New York and say hello to someone, and he punches you in the face, you can't dismiss it by saying "Hey, that's how people are in New York. He was actually being courteous. Look! He didn't even take your wallet afterwards." Wrong is wrong, and it doesn't matter how many other people in the area do it, it is what it is.

 

[EasternShore]

+1 Razorburn

Common decency is something everyone could use a little more of, organizations as a whole not just .govs or PDs lack respect of individuals and see the publi as a mass, thus dehumanizing. But I degress back to my original thought.

In Maryland (which is almost as bad as Cali and is actively trying to get worse) that is a felony traffic stop. It is used to stop known and suspecteded felons to reduce flight risk, ensure capture, increase public/officer safety (I really don't buy the last part).

But non the less even in MD it is only used for Felons.

Silverlance I would bet if you saw a decription of an LAPD Felony stop on paper it would look like what you experienced. You were indeed treated like a criminal for owning a firearm.