Gunsite acadamy and etc. training

[Old Dog]

A $30 dollar book from walmart and a range trio a month will get you to paper plate accuracy out to twenty yards which is the same standard these "DELUX SCHOOLS" sale you on.

The premier firearms academies such as Gunsite and Thunder Ranch don't even need to advertise, yet there's waiting lists to get in during certain seasons. Certainly, I have never seen (over the past thirty-five years or so that I've paid attention to this type of training), any effort on the part of these esteemed schools to use fear in order to get folks signed up.

I'm sorry you feel the need to denigrate institutions about which you clearly know nothing, but a book sold in Wal-Mart and one range trip a month, sadly, will never get one average shooter to the level of skill to which one may improve by taking even the entry-level courses at these schools.

 

[BSA1]

A $30 dollar book from walmart and a range trio a month will get you to paper plate accuracy out to twenty yards which is the same standard these "DELUX SCHOOLS" sale you on.

So will a $60.00 book from Barnes and Noble get me to X-Ring accuracy at 25 yards?

 

[Jim Watson]

My opinion on this is yes, there is starting to be a little bit of a class difference between shooters nowdays. The two classes being:
"I like to shoot casually and to relax, but nevertheless have enough ammo in stock in case something happens"
VS:
" I spent $4000 dollars on this AR and Glock, and went to this gun academy for two weeks who trained me in all this tactical stuff. If you don't do the same then you're a irresposible gun owner and a FUDD!!"

You discredit those of us who say "I took professional training to be a better shot, the better to defend myself and to enjoy the recreational and competitive side more. As Jeff Cooper said, "You will do as you think best."" Arrogance was not a subject taught in any of the classes I took.

 

[Terry Vincent]

As noted in my first entry, Gun Sight's instructional delivery design is implemented for the first-time handgun owner. Their excellent instruction takes the beginner from the concept of "this is the muzzle" to being able to accurately place rounds from a concealed position on target at very fast times. Yes, it is four days of repetition, professionally supervised by instructors who are passionate about their endeavors, and requires the students to focus on the training. Their is no fear or aggressive instruction and students leave the experience substantially improved from the first day.

Having said that, what this training does is instill correct fundamentals of handgun safety, marksmanship, and confidence unlikely realized at self-instilled training exercises. Instructors are skilled at analyzing incorrect techniques that contribute to frustrating results that cause many new shooters to either continue down the road of mediocrity or simply refrain from practicing. Indeed, this training can be expensive, however, Front Sight has some very attractive and inexpensive introductory course offerings.

For members who subscribe to personal protection, I submit the same level of training given to newly hired police officers ought to be undertaken by you. Police officers are just as unlikely to encounter use of deadly force as citizens, yet they train for the eventuality with the idea of surviving their first deadly force encounter. We fight like we train....... The case studies are replete with examples of improper training with catastrophic results.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

I wasn't talking about those of you who do it to be a better shot and to improve yourselfs or to genuinely train. The reason you do it is the reason that I suppport.
I was referring to the tacti-***** who buy every new piece of gear on the market and who go to these classes , present their opinions as fact and who say your gun isn't dependable until it has a red dot on it

 

[rpenmanparker]

I attended the Feb 22nd four-day defensive pistol class at Front Sight in Pahrump, NV. I am a retired LEO firearms instructor and found the introductory course substantially the same as those I designed and instructed for new law enforcement officers, I.e., basics and then building upon the skills to realize competency with a pistol in deadly force scenarios. Forty shooters took the course and I couldn't help but notice the sudden increase in skills resulting from instructional guidance and repetition. The final day tested the shooters with timed fire at 3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yards. Most of the participants were able to master the timed fire of 1.9 seconds from a draw with two rounds to the thoratic cavity at the three yard line. As the line moved back the time increased, but even at 15 yards the time limit was 3 seconds for two rounds to the thoratic cavity from a concealed draw!

Training was delivered in a very positive manner without traditional "boot camp" yelling and belittling. Instructors maintained a very safe environment while giving the students confidence and initiative to achieve the goals of the training which required eight hundred rounds.

This is an into course and you can be enrolled for approximately $200. Ordinarily, it would cost $500 a day but front sight is offering it at this remarkably low introductory price. Go to Frontsight.com and check out their course offerings.

I took the course as a refresher, I'm 70 and still carry daily. I' m required to qualify yearly with my department to maintain my national permit to carry as a retired LEO and this course really brought back the speed and accuracy needed to survive a deadly force encounter. It exceeded my annual qualification.

Old age has slowed me because I could not get the three yard time of 1.9 seconds. The best I could do was 2.1 seconds from a concealed draw. More practice needed. That is what this topic is about.....preparation for the unlikely possibility you will have to employ deadly force. Normative experience will not meet your minimum requirements of survival. Only empirical experience, training, and practice will let you survive your first fire fight.

That was my experience there exactly. Couldn’t have described it better than you did. But I chose to take the timed exercise without concealment and met most of the times although I couldn’t qualify for any graduation honors. I did come in second in the steel plate competition. Damn. Got beat by maybe a tenth of a second. Concealment I am practicing at home.

 

[tactikel]

Growing up, 80% of the men in my neighborhood were WWII vets. They trained their kids on how to shoot, and in self defense. Many today have no one to instill these skills.
I was privileged to attend a class at GunSite. I was a target shooter, and a wingshooter, I wanted develope the skills to protect my family in these troubled times. At the end of class I had the skills and confidence to accomplish my goals.
At lunch break I met a family from Colorado, husband, wife, 3 teenagers: 2 daughters, one son. None had any shooting experience, taking a basic pistol class. At graduation they all would be capable of effective self defense. Would Handloader prefer they buy a book and figure it out for themselves?
I have received skills that will last a lifetime, and have passed them on to my daughters, sons in law, and Wife.

 

[bearcreek]

I understand this is a class thing much like hunting in Africa, those who go will understand all the mystery's of life and those who present objections will be looked upon poorly.

Absolute nonsense. It's not a "class thing", it's a priority thing. I am, for all intents and purposes, "low class" and yet, I manage to regularly attend professional training. As I said in the other thread that has been mentioned here, most gun owners can afford training, they just don't want to. If they can afford a flat screen TV, beer, more than one handgun, more than one rifle, a new vehicle, restaurant meals, etc. etc., then they can afford training. If they/you don't think that professional training is worth prioritizing, then that's fine. That's your right. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that it's a money thing.

 

[Casefull]

I know some of you think that if you need training then everyone does. That is a false assumption. Another load of crap is that you cannot teach yourself a skill. Shooting is one of the easier skills I have taught myself. I shoot just fine and have for a long time. I also shoot a lot.
It is fine to take all the training one has the time and money for, I am all for it if you are.
There is a large variance in natural abilities from one person to another. It is not fair but is a fact that some of us cannot get out of our own way and others just handle themselves better. Do what you need to.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I shoot just fine...

How do you know? What have you done to test your abilities? Have you participated in any USPSA competition? IDPA?

And self defense can require knowledge and skills beyond simply standing, shooting, and hitting a target. A package of skills which can be important in the defensive use of a gun include:

• Knowing and understanding the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. You will want to understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did.
  
  
• Knowing about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. You will want to understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. You will want to know about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter.
  
  
• Developing good practical proficiency with your gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

If you find yourself in potentially critical situation, you have no way of knowing in advance what skills you will need to solve your particular problem. If the skills you possess are up to the task, you have a decent chance. If not -- not so much.

People with few skills and little training have prevailed. That only means that their particular problem could be solved with the skills they had. If the problem had been different, things might not have worked out well.

The more you can do, and the better you can do it, the luckier you'll be.

 

[Mn Fats]

Theoretical knowledge is read/observed. Technique is taught. Skill is earned. My take away from Billiards.

 

[Nuclear]

I've never heard any reputable trading school use fear to market. They don't need to and it wouldn't be ethical to do so. Not everybody can afford the money and/or time, I understand and respect that. Gun use basics aren't that hard to learn, it's kind of why they took over from earlier projectile weapons. But you can't see what you may be doing wrong, you need an experienced outside observer, even if it is just a fellow competitor at a match, or a one day training class at your local gun range. Book learning just isn't the same as learning from experiences.

 

[bearcreek]

I know some of you think that if you need training then everyone does. That is a false assumption. Another load of crap is that you cannot teach yourself a skill.

Interesting. So, it seems then that every student of the violent arts for thousands of years has been doing it wrong. No need to learn from those who have lots of experience, just figure it out on our own! You should get this message to our military and peace officers. Save them a bunch of money.

Shooting is one of the easier skills I have taught myself. I shoot just fine and have for a long time. I also shoot a lot.

Shooting a gun and fighting with a gun are two very different things, or so I've been told by those who have been there and done it. You wouldn't know that I guess since you can figure it out on your own and don't need their help.

 

[Casefull]

Tell the insurgent movements we have to deal with all over the world that you can't teach yourself how to fight. Tell the gang bangers and the street thugs that you guys are all so afraid of that you have to practice quick draw bang bang so that you will be able to defend yourselves from them that you can't teach yourself how to fight or shoot.

 

[Casefull]

I didn't say not to get training. All I did is stepped on some toes when I suggested that some of us suck at shooting and fighting and we need to be trained more than the next guy does. The fact that I believe I can do what needs to be done without professional training bothers somebody that feels they need professional training. Sorry you're so insecure in your own abilities.

 

[Captains1911]

I didn't say not to get training. All I did is stepped on some toes when I suggested that some of us suck at shooting and fighting and we need to be trained more than the next guy does. The fact that I believe I can do what needs to be done without professional training bothers somebody that feels they need professional training. Sorry you're so insecure in your own abilities.

You can’t teach yourself a skill you know nothing about, which you have made pretty clear you know nothing about, because you seem to be under the impression that the training being discussed is about marksmanship, which it is not. I’ll say it again ...you don’t know what you don’t know.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Tell the insurgent movements we have to deal with all over the world that you can't teach yourself how to fight. Tell the gang bangers and the street thugs that you guys are all so afraid of that you have to practice quick draw bang bang....

You're assuming facts not in evidence.

Pretty much all even moderately effective insurgent movements have had a core of leadership with military experience. They train those who lack that experience. Mideast terrorist movements operate training camps.

Most gang bangers grow up in a violent environment where fighting is a normal part of life. When kids join gangs they begin to be indoctrinated and trained by more experienced members.

....The fact that I believe I can do what needs to be done without professional training bothers somebody that feels they need professional training....

It doesn't bother me. It won't be my problem. It will be your problem, and you've chosen your path. You (and your family and friends) will bear the consequences of your decisions. But there's no reason that needs to be the concern of the rest of us.

However, it's worthwhile for those of us who disagree with your choices to point that out, as well as to explain why we disagree. Folks who might not yet have made up their minds, or who might be willing to consider changing their minds, should be fully informed.

So by all means do whatever you please. In a spare moment you might want to read about the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[GEM]

I fail to understand the venom of those who denounce training. If you cannot afford it, I certainly understand. If you have seen some bad trainers, certainly they exist as do bad teachers, priests, physicians and comic book writers.

However, if you choose to carry an instrument of lethal force or wield one in your home, you might benefit from quality training. So why the hate?

To follow up on posts like Frank's and Captains1911 - having an expert watch your performance can see flaws that you don't. Also, as you advance into things like FOF training, the stress inoculation is invaluable. Studies in many critical incident disciplines, fire, police, ship handling, flying, etc. have shown that quality simulations are wonderful in helping you deal with having subconscious perceptual and action routines. You don't get these on the square range or shooting a rock at the ranch.

There is evidence that criminal do train with their guns. Google it. Here's an article that contains several good references:
http://www.secondcalldefense.org/criminal-firearm-training

As far as having self-insight into one's abilities, let me switch domains. Couples were asked how many times the female of the pair achieved orgasm. The male said 85%. The females said 50 to 65%. Take that for what's its worth. Frank already cited the Dunning-Kruger findings.

Interesting also that when pros are off their game, they go to a coach and redo the basics.

 

[Old Dog]

The fact that I believe I can do what needs to be done without professional training bothers somebody that feels they need professional training. Sorry you're so insecure in your own abilities.

What's funny is that as soon as I read this, I was going to post exactly what Captains1911 said in post #41 -- if you haven't ever availed yourself of professional training, you don't know what you don't know.

Tell the insurgent movements we have to deal with all over the world that you can't teach yourself how to fight.

This one made me almost laugh out loud. Having done a little bit of fighting against some insurgents, I assure you that the most effective of these groups, do train -- they are most certainly not "self-taught."

The best shooters that I know -- even those that have obtained some pretty high-speed training in both military and law enforcement -- never pass up opportunities for additional professional training. In my days on a tactical team, several of us would pay out of our own pocket to attend training courses from reputable schools. Did we need the extra training? Perhaps not, but it helped all of us, including me, improve and maintain skills.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Meh. Those who don't know, generally don't know they don't know but think they do know. It's the Dunning-Kruger effect. As a 2A advocate, I would love for everyone to have a gun. As an instructor, Constitutional Carry makes me cringe... All those bullet holes in the roof and target carriers at the indoor range... so... many.. holes. I'm sure none of those guys needed training either.

When some of my students start getting too cocky on the stationary range, I take them to their first IDPA match. It's amazing to see them see how badly their "skills" fall apart under even the least bit of stress that is created by simply being on the clock against other competitors. Fumbled draws, fumbled mag changes, groups that.. well, you can't call groups. It's extraordinarily predictable.

And that's where the value of proper training comes in. God forbid you ever do have to use your firearm for real, it's not going to be on a bright sunny day with the birds chirping and your eye and ear pro in, with your target nice and stationary stapled to a board exactly 3 meters away. Most people are never going to train for that on their own. Most people don't know how to train for that on their own. Most people that do try to train for that on their own end up creating horrible training scars. As an example: Professional qualification course not too long ago with everyone shooting hi-cap bottom feeders. The course of fire was six shots around the right side of a barricade. Mag change behind the barrier. Then six shots from around the left side. Five shooters were on the line. Four magazines were on the ground at the end of the exercise. Four guys were standing there like derp-a-potamuses. The fifth guy had stuffed his partially expended mag in a pocket a was still mentally engaged. Guess who had training and who had "been doin' it for years"?

I'm not even talking yet about the other stuff that keeps you alive in a gun fight. The stuff you don't learn by pressing triggers like situational awareness and the will to fight and live.

If you could learn to fight well with a firearm just by reading a couple of books and sending a few rounds down range, the military and every LEO agency on the planet would sure like to know who that is done. They stand to save billions of dollars every year. Oh sure, you can learn to "shoot" on your own. You'll just get stomped by someone who has had any amount of proper training.


**Edit**

Wow, three Dunning-Kruger effect mentions while I was typing. Lol.

 

[bearcreek]

The best shooters that I know -- even those that have obtained some pretty high-speed training in both military and law enforcement -- never pass up opportunities for additional professional training. In my days on a tactical team, several of us would pay out of our own pocket to attend training courses from reputable schools. Did we need the extra training? Perhaps not, but it helped all of us, including me, improve and maintain skills.

This is something that I've noticed is universal at these discussions about the importance of good training. The folks coming up with the excuses not to do it are never people who have been there and done that.

 

[mgresh]

This is something that I've noticed is universal at these discussions about the importance of good training. The folks coming up with the excuses not to do it are never people who have been there and done that.

99% of gun owners have never 'been there and done that'. We're talking about training for the most rare of occurrences.

I don't have any training at all other than shooting with experienced shooters, including LEO's. I have used others experience and recommendations to become a better shooter. I would surely benefit from some training and more stressful environments. But 99% of us still will never know how we will react in a life threatening situation in which we need to use a firearm.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

99% of us still will never know how we will react in a life threatening situation in which we need to use a firearm.

And that's a good thing.

 

[bearcreek]

99% of gun owners have never 'been there and done that'. We're talking about training for the most rare of occurrences.

I don't have any training at all other than shooting with experienced shooters, including LEO's. I have used others experience and recommendations to become a better shooter. I would surely benefit from some training and more stressful environments. But 99% of us still will never know how we will react in a life threatening situation in which we need to use a firearm.

I bet the number is higher than 1% but that really has nothing to do with what I said. We were talking about people who don't think that professional training is important and/or people who think they can "self train" themselves just fine without input from a good instructor.

 

[Terry Vincent]

Experience in law enforcement and training new Leo's, as well as considerable street experience has yielded several insights regarding training and the actual use of deadly force. In some departments (mostly smaller agencies with limited training budgets), only an annual qualification may be required for officers. Any training other than the annual requal. will be at the officers' expense. Little or no additional training is the usual response, primarily due to the cost of ammo, instruction, etc., not because the officers possess a negative attitude regarding training.

Handgun skills are perishable. Substantial time (approximately 80 to 100 hours depending on the state's POST Boad mandates) is spent in handgun training and tactics at every state-run police academy. However, when requalification comes around a year later for the officers who did not train during the year following their academy experience, markedly reduced skill levels are observed.

You will fight like you train, or hadn't trained. Many officer involved use of deadly force cases bear this fact out. Citizens and officers will not have the time to think about fundamentals, techniques, stance, etc., The employment of their handgun will be at a skill level consistent with their practice sessions and related stress scenarios presented in the training exercises. The deadly force response will be controlled entirely by your subconscious and will demonstrate an observable skill reduction (your hit probability goes way down) due to the reduced time limit required to survive the event. Your front sight will not exist if you haven't instilled the need to acquire it for accurate flash sight pictures or well-defined sight alignment. Only viable training under stress induced situations will assist the citizen/officer in stopping the threat they are confronting.

You will focus on the threat, not your front sight. This doesn't contribute to accurate well placed hits on target, but it is intuitive for us to look at a threat head-on because that's where the danger exists. It is repetitive, muscle memory induced training that will help you focus on the front sight, and hit the target.

The remedial training I undertook at Front Sight last month reinforced the above knowledge. Regularly scheduled training will assist you in controlling the negatives associated with a deadly force exchange. Any stress related exercises will be beneficial and enhance your survival potential.