Gunsite or Thunder Ranch first?

[westernrover]

I'm going to try to get to either Gunsite or Thunder Ranch by June for either a 250 or DH1 class. Whichever one I get to first, I'll go to the other for the 350 or DH2 class. But which should I do first, and which second?

Of course, everyone is free to post their opinion, but I would give the most consideration to those who can tell me they have been to both. Even if it wasn't for those particular classes, I value the opinion of those who've been to both facilities and interacted with the faculty of both. If you've only been to one or neither, I'm not sure you have any basis to be very convincing.

I know some people think of these schools as an elitist thing because of the expense. For me, the greatest cost is the time away from my family, but it is a practical necessity for my purpose.

I intend to shoot a revolver in the class because that is the gun I like best and carry. I am not likely to defer this until the 250 Revolver class at Gunsite at the end of August. By then I hope to be in the second class. But I believe revolvers are welcome in all 250 and DH1 classes.

I believe I will be starting a little ahead of the curve in either class. My skill level is well beyond beginner, but I also don't expect only beginners in either class. Besides, I have a long term interest in firearms training. It doesn't serve me to build on anything but the best foundation in the basics and I doubt I would find either to be remedial. The Thunder Ranch classes are 3 days whereas Gunsite are 5. I wonder if I would be better off spending 3 days on the first class and 5 on the second or vice versa.

Thunder Ranch classes are less frequent and their website indicates when classes are full. Gunsite's classes are more frequent, but their site does not appear to indicate availability. Travel distance and expenses are similar for me, although obviously the shorter class has a lower overall cost.

I don't have another basis by which to compare these two, so I'm hoping someone that has been to both, even if they were taking a different class, could advise by comparison.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Go to the one that is less expensive.

 

[Buzznrose]

There is nothing “elitist” about attending a quality firearms training course. Folks who say it’s only for ‘the rich’ have not a clue of the people who attend. Some people will blow through $3-5K at a Disney and leave with a few trinkets, some pictures, and a bunch of memories of long lines, overpriced drinks, rude tourists, and crappy service.

I cannot speak for TR, but Gunsite is a professionally run school staffed with great folks, clean facilities, and fair prices. I have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of the three classes I’ve attended, as did my wife and daughter.

As for shooting a revolver during class, well, that will be your choice...and your handicap. That wasn’t meant to be negative nor said with ill intent, but it’s accurate and your reality. At a minimum, with a revolver, you will be reloading a LOT more, both on the firing range and in the break area. You’ll need a bunch of speedloaders of one sort or another. And when they are running firing strings, you will be running less loaded round than even the 1911 guys (again, no disrespect towards any firearm choices, just observations from classes).

But if that is your choice, and what you carry, then Gunsite will be good training. They will expect a lot from you..and regardless who you draw for instructors, they will be qualified to train you on your weapon. They will put you through the paces, and you will grow from the experience.

But, and I think this is something to consider...pack a quality semi auto pistol rig with plenty of magazines in case you have an epiphany and decide to come into the dark side...it will definitely take some pressure off all the reloading and allow you to focus on the shooting skills they will surely be helping you hone.

Take care and have fun!

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've done the Gunsite 250 class and Thunder Ranch is on my bucket list.

The only extra cost of TR is the required ammunition...Gunsite also requires frangible ammo for their Shoot House, but it's only about 20 rounds.

Shooting a revolver in the 250 class shouldn't be an issue. Most of their CoF is still geared toward the 1911's capacity and you're encouraged to reload whenever you want. I would bring extra speedloaders, and a way to carry them up to the line, as as to not hold up the relay. Since you're practiced with your revolver, reload speed shouldn't be a factor.

The only place you might feel handicapped with speedloaders is during the inter-class shoot-off . The CoF is man-vs-man and has a mandatory reload before engaging the split-popper.

Personally, I'd go to TR first (as they offer fewer classes) and plan to attend the 250 Revolver class second (to maximize staff expertise)

 

[Buzznrose]

I probably came across too negative about revolvers, and I'm sorry for that. Your revolver will indeed work. The one guy in the three classes I attended who shot a revolver was a Philly LEO and part time GS adjunct instructor. He ran 6 or 7 speed loaders for every string, and kept a handful of loose rounds in his pocket to top off when he could. He definitely kept up well with all the semi's.

All I'm saying is the classes are paced for magazine fed handguns (1911's were Cooper's preferred handgun...) You will be hustling with that wheel gun.

Like I said, for the cost of either class, at least bring a pistol...just in case you want to get some training time with it too. Can't hurt.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Shooting a revolver in the 250 class shouldn't be an issue. Most of their CoF is still geared toward the 1911's capacity and you're encouraged to reload whenever you want. I would bring extra speedloaders, and a way to carry them up to the line, as as to not hold up the relay. Since you're practiced with your revolver, reload speed shouldn't be a factor.

When I went to the 250 class, there were a few revolvers on the first day, less so on the second, and none on the third. Even those proficient w/ speed-loading found themselves at a disadvantage and felt left-behind as they had to work harder to keep-up. If Gunsite offers a 250 revolver class, you are set. If not, consider taking a 1911.

 

[westernrover]

Did you shoot more than the 1000+50 rounds they advise on the class description?

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Did you shoot more than the 1000+50 rounds they advise on the class description?

I believe so. But they have ammo available for sale should you fall short.

 

[taliv]

I spent a week at thunder ranch almost 20 years ago now (holy crap now I feel old) back when it was in Texas.

It was an excellent experience. Clint’s advice was entertaining and practical.

I think the reputation of those schools is more “old school” now. My recommendation is to also look at Rogers school. And go to m4carbine.net or lightfighter forums and look at the training forums for recommendations. Awful lot of retired operators out there doing the itenerate trainer routine and you can prob find better classes closer to you.

In any event your intention to attend both is the right approach. Train lots of different places. I don’t regret any of the classes I’ve been to even though some were very bad. Sometimes you learn what not to do.

 

[Terry Vincent]

I would encourage you to seriously consider Front Sight in Pahrump, Neveda. I attended the four-day defensive pistol class last month and found it to be worth the time and financial expenditure. Take a few minutes and look at Front Sight's web site (Frontsight.com).

I'm confident you will learn a great deal and find the training experience invaluable. There was one revolver shooter in my class and he was treated very well by the instructors.

Front Sight has some very attractive first-time participant offerings that may meet your needs. There are also two-day defensive handgun courses available, but the web site will give you all the information you may need.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Front Sight in Pahrump, Neveda.

Front Sight has some very attractive first-time participant offerings that may meet your needs.

Most instructors, who have instructed there, agree that Front Sight is a Shooting School as opposed to a Gun Fighting School...that Gunsite and Thunder Ranch are.

My take is that if you weren't going to get any training, due to expense, I recommend Front Sight. If cost isn't the determinate factor, there are better choices

 

[rpenmanparker]

Most instructors, who ave instructed there, agree that Front Sight is a Shooting School as opposed to a Gun Fighting School...that Gunsite and Thunder Ranch are.

My take is that if you weren't going to get any training, due to expense, I recommend Front Sight. If cost isn't the determinate factor, there are better choices

I would encourage you to seriously consider Front Sight in Pahrump, Neveda. I attended the four-day defensive pistol class last month and found it to be worth the time and financial expenditure. Take a few minutes and look at Front Sight's web site (Frontsight.com).

I'm confident you will learn a great deal and find the training experience invaluable. There was one revolver shooter in my class and he was treated very well by the instructors.

Front Sight has some very attractive first-time participant offerings that may meet your needs. There are also two-day defensive handgun courses available, but the web site will give you all the information you may need.

Actually I agree that Front Sight is a great value. I do not agree that it is light on the defense part of the training. Very well balanced in my opinion.

I, too, had one revolver student in my class. She was undergunned with a 5-shot snubbie and struggled to keep up with the other 23 semi-autos both in speed of reloading and accuracy on target. I suggest if you want to use a revolver, you take one that carries as many rounds as possible, at least 6, but 7 would be better. Make sure it has quality, fully adjustable sights that have been zeroed for about 10-15 yards. And buy snap caps and speed loaders and practice, practice, practice speed reloading prior to attending the course. Take at least 4 speed loaders (5 or more would be better) with you and a belt rig that can hold them. Also be prepared to buy more ammo than specified in the course description. A semi-auto mag can be ejected with the unused rounds in place and they can be used in the next reload. But unused revolver rounds mostly go on the ground. You will be able to pick some up, but even so they will be filthy. All the above is true for whatever school you choose.

It is not really sensible to bring ammo with you at least to Front Sight unless you are driving there. If you are flying, their prices are reasonable enough to just buy what you need from them. Besides the airline regs don’t allow you to take enough anyway.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

It is a good thing if Front Sight spends a lot of time on the basics and adds-in defensive work, which is what most shooters need. I have not been impressed by the gunhandling skills I witness at the ranges I attended.

Unless something has changed since the Colonel owned Gunsite, API250 spends the first two days on the basics, then transitions into combat exercises. Some prior weapon-handling skill is useful, but not necessarily needed. If you need the very basics, they now offer a 150 course.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I do not agree that it is light on the defense part of the training. Very well balanced in my opinion.

Which other training programs are you basing this assertion upon.

Front Sight's training program is based on their interpretation of Chuck Taylor's interpretation of the Gunsite program...that they have modified to account for the skill level and disposable income of their target demographic.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I have not attended Front Sight. But I have had clients who paid me to correct the technique they learned there and I have discussed their program with former instructors in trying to determine the cause of the clients' problems

 

[westernrover]

I....Awful lot of retired operators out there doing the itenerate trainer routine and you can prob find better classes closer to you.

In any event your intention to attend both is the right approach. Train lots of different places. I don’t regret any of the classes I’ve been to even though some were very bad. Sometimes you learn what not to do.

I'm not sure being a retired operator makes a person a good instructor. Some of them will probably bubble up to the top because of their pedagogical skills, but it may take some time to sort out the ones who are giving it a try. I do take your advice to check out many different trainers.

 

[westernrover]

At Glassdoor, there are 12 reviews of Front Sight by their employees: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Front-Sight-Firearms-Training-Institute-Reviews-E577749.htm

Here's a video that comes close to being a review by Clint Smith of Clint Smith as an instructor:

I realize that some people might be impressed by Clint Smith's personality. Maybe they find him shocking, witty, raw, or are otherwise impressed by his character. He certainly seems to believe his personality is marketable. I'm not turned on. His personality doesn't do anything for me. I'm not a fan. I do recognize that he probably has more experience in firearms instruction than anyone at Front Sight or Gunsite and I am interested in observing firearms instruction as much as I am in being instructed and gaining skills in both firearms, fighting and instruction. I also recognize that Clint has a favorable view toward revolvers. Even so, I don't recognize his revolver skill or technique as especially remarkable. But again, I wouldn't be going to watch him shoot, but to watch him teach and to learn.

Gunsite is harder for me to comment about since there are several instructors and it's not clear who would be teaching a class I might attend. I have seen several video of Il Ling New lecturing and demonstrating both pistol and revolver. The videos Ruger did with her on several topics show a remarkable level of teaching skill. Does she teach how to "fight"? Maybe she needs to yell at people on the firing line like a drill sergeant, get them to chant responses back to her questions, and talk more about dumping brain pans on sh*tbags in her lectures and then more people will get that hoorah feeling that they're learning to fight. I don't know. That's why I'm going to see for myself. Besides, until I do, I'm going to be like everyone else in this thread that's commenting on firearms instruction without having been to Gunsite. I mean, you can certainly learn to shoot without ever visiting Gunsite, but you can't say that you're well versed on the present state of firearms instruction if you've totally skipped over Coopertown. There's no question about the influence it's had and continues to have, and without visiting you're just left speculating about what you think they do or read or heard or whatever.

I also hope to visit Mas Ayoob and Grant Cunningham if possible, for similar reasons as Thunder Ranch and Gunsite. I'm not a fan of either, but a curriculum would be poor if it ignored them. I'm looking at the the first two because they have facilities to offer more in the beginning. I'm not ignoring newer instructors or schools, but some of these guys aren't far from joining Cooper and the newer guys will still be teaching later if they're good, and if they're not, I won't miss them.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Two instructors you should consider adding to your list are Travis Haley and Bill Rogers

 

[rpenmanparker]

Which other training programs are you basing this assertion upon.

Front Sight's training program is based on their interpretation of Chuck Taylor's interpretation of the Gunsite program...that they have modified to account for the skill level and disposable income of their target demographic.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I have not attended Front Sight. But I have had clients who paid me to correct the technique they learned there and I have discussed their program with former instructors in trying to determine the cause of the clients' problems

Your post is interesting and raises important questions. First I have only had training at Front Sight. So that is why my comments about it were not stated as comparative. I didn't say it was more or less well balanced than others, just that it was well balanced (for my tastes and perceived needs-implied).

Regarding the correction of techniques learned there, what prompted those students to seek you out? What led them to believe they had learned bad techniques at Front sight? What were their problems? Be advised that you can purchase printed training materials (essentially textbooks) from Front Sight for not too much money which faithfully teach their method with excellent photographs for assistance. You might look into that to see whether the source of the students' problems was truly due to the material being taught or just their perception of it. If you were conveniently located to me, I would gladly share my copies with you.

 

[taliv]

I'm not sure being a retired operator makes a person a good instructor. Some of them will probably bubble up to the top because of their pedagogical skills, but it may take some time to sort out the ones who are giving it a try. I do take your advice to check out many different trainers.

It doesn’t but at least you know they have the skills and experience. There are an awful lot of trainers out there who have neither.

Larry vickers and Kyle lamb And Jeff Gonzales are some pretty reputable older trainers. There’s a raftload of new guys. Go to the websites I mentioned and read the reviews. Make your own decisions.

I don’t personally think they’re better or worse than the Gunsite alum like the late Pat Rogers and Louis awerbuck. If they were still alive I’d say you should attend both types as well as some of the classes offered by 3gun wizards and grandmasters. I don’t think you’ll get the bigger picture without exposure to all three

 

[Old Dog]

westernrover, thanks for posting that Clint Smith video. Typical Clint dry humor, humility and excellent points.

Mas Ayoob takes his classes on the road, comes up to Firearms Academy of Seattle every year. Boy, I'd love to have taken a course from either Rogers or Awerbuck, they both always seemed to be able to simplify concepts so well, never sugar-coated anything.

Anyway, to the OP -- I've not done Thunder Ranch (have toured the facilities), but if you're gonna take a course in the summer, (being a PacNorWest guy who once lived in Arizona) I'd suggest TR may have more favorable weather

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I highly recommend Tactical Performance Center as well.

They even have a traveling crew that will come to your local range.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

For looking for training, you also need to consider the facilities. Gunsite and Thunder Ranch probably have both the most extensive ranges in the world.

 

[rpenmanparker]

For looking for training, you also need to consider the facilities. Gunsite and Thunder Ranch probably have both the most extensive ranges in the world.

What is an extensive range? Front Sight has more than 50 huge ranges. How many do you need?

 

[taliv]

For looking for training, you also need to consider the facilities. Gunsite and Thunder Ranch probably have both the most extensive ranges in the world.

i don't know what you mean by this, but in terms of practical barricades and props it would be hard to beat places like CORE and K&M, but they don't have 360* shoot houses for practicing entry and house clearing, like most metro swat training facilities. You've also got places like camp perry in your state that hosts thousands of competitors in a day in the national matches.
There are 3gun matches at rock castle in KY with 500+ people. King of 2 Miles at whittington...
and of course, I was under the impression that the King of Jordan had a pretty nice range that even includes a 747
and my fav range is Hat Creek

I'm sure Gunsite is nice, but if I had to guess, I'd say their range mostly caters to their instructors and types of classes. Scanning down their very long list of instructors, it looks like they're almost all retired cops with a handful of marines and AF. If being an operator doesn't necessarily make you a good trainer, being a cop or marine definitely doesn't either.

I would expect retired cop classes to be wildly different from those of retired delta guys or former 3gun champs. and the ranges they use are going to reflect the type of shooting they do.

 

[9mmepiphany]

What led them to believe they had learned bad techniques at Front sight? What were their problems?

They found that the techniques they learned did not allow them to shoot accurately at a competitive speed.

A large part of that was caused by their buying into Front Sight's preferred Weaver stance where the focus was on isometric tension between the hands and pulling the gun down from muzzle flip