Gunsmithing without an FFL?

[triggerman762]

Would it be legal to do small gunsmithing jobs in my shop without an FFL? Specifically jobs that DO NOT have anything to do with the reciever like cutting and treading a barrel, repairing a stock, pinning and welding, etc.

As far as I can tell federal law would not prevent me from this type of gunsmithing so long as I never have any recievers in the shop. I am planning on double checking with the local BATFE office but I figured I'd ask here and make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

Note: I am planning on getting an FFL eventually after I relocate out of Illinois, but for the time being I would like to be able to do some work for my friends without worrying about burying my dog.

 

[troy fairweather]

it my be legal if the gun does not stay over night. or if the owner is present. for long guns pistols maybe a hole new thing.

 

[Delawarean]

From what I understand:

Federally you can do anything you like to your own guns. Exception being making them into a machine guns or SBR/SBS without the proper tax stamp.

You can even make your own guns, from scratch or 80% receivers.

EDIT: I misread your question, but I still think you can do what you like as long as you are not shipping anything.

 

[5whiskey]

I have spoken with an ATF agent about the issue. Basically, if it's your "business" then it is an issue and you need a FFL. If, IF, you are primarily a machinist (or whatever else) with a shop and you occasionally take a barrel threading job or something to that affect, it is not your main source of income and fairly rare, and you never take possession of the firearm (i.e. the customer waits with it while you do the work) the ATF is not going to beat down your door over it as you aren't actively engaged in the business of gunsmithing. If it's just a small hobby thing for friends in your backyard shop, and they slip you a few bucks, probably not an issue if you do it occasionally. If you start making 1k a month off of it, it probably is an issue. The problem with all this is... there is no bright line on when it's not an issue, and when it is. Proceed with caution, I personally would get an FFL if I planned to accept money to do this regularly.

 

[dogtown tom]

Would it be legal to do small gunsmithing jobs in my shop without an FFL? Specifically jobs that DO NOT have anything to do with the reciever like cutting and treading a barrel, repairing a stock, pinning and welding, etc.

As lomg as you are not working on an actual firearm, no FFL is needed.
ITAR is a different issue. Currently ITAR considers any machining work as "manufacturing", requiring yearly registration.

As far as I can tell federal law would not prevent me from this type of gunsmithing so long as I never have any recievers in the shop. I am planning on double checking with the local BATFE office but I figured I'd ask here and make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

Correct.

Note: I am planning on getting an FFL eventually after I relocate out of Illinois, but for the time being I would like to be able to do some work for my friends without worrying about burying my dog.

Just don't call it gunsmithing.

 

[dogtown tom]

it my be legal if the gun does not stay over night. or if the owner is present. for long guns pistols maybe a hole new thing.

Has nothing to do with whether he needs an FFL.

 

[dogtown tom]

I have spoken with an ATF agent about the issue. Basically, if it's your "business" then it is an issue and you need a FFL. If, IF, you are primarily a machinist (or whatever else) with a shop and you occasionally take a barrel threading job or something to that affect, it is not your main source of income and fairly rare, and you never take possession of the firearm (i.e. the customer waits with it while you do the work) the ATF is not going to beat down your door over it as you aren't actively engaged in the business of gunsmithing. If it's just a small hobby thing for friends in your backyard shop, and they slip you a few bucks, probably not an issue if you do it occasionally. If you start making 1k a month off of it, it probably is an issue. The problem with all this is... there is no bright line on when it's not an issue, and when it is. Proceed with caution, I personally would get an FFL if I planned to accept money to do this regularly.

Clearly the OP does not intend to take in firearms.
He can thread 1,000 bbls a day and will never come under the regulation of ATF.

 

[WestKentucky]

I see no way that a man threading a carbon steel tube 1/2×28 truly constitutes gunsmithing provided that the barrel and the "firearm" are not one piece or assembly at the time which the work is done.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I see no way that a man threading a carbon steel tube 1/2×28 truly constitutes gunsmithing provided that the barrel and the "firearm" are not one piece or assembly at the time which the work is done.

What you see is irrelevant. It’s a matter of what the ATF, and a federal judge would be likely to see.

The receiver is the firearm. What can the gunsmith do without having possession of the receiver? Taking possession of the receiver, and retaining possession while the work is being done, is a core issue for which the FFL is necessary.

I’m off to bed. I’ll dig into the statutes later.

 

[Rule3]

Would it be legal to do small gunsmithing jobs in my shop without an FFL? Specifically jobs that DO NOT have anything to do with the reciever like cutting and treading a barrel, repairing a stock, pinning and welding, etc.

As far as I can tell federal law would not prevent me from this type of gunsmithing so long as I never have any recievers in the shop. I am planning on double checking with the local BATFE office but I figured I'd ask here and make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

Note: I am planning on getting an FFL eventually after I relocate out of Illinois, but for the time being I would like to be able to do some work for my friends without worrying about burying my dog.

Seems to me if you don't have any receiver, which is the gun or firearm, how could it be called "gunsmithing",?? I refinish wood grips(stocks) that doesn't make me a gunsmith .

 

[giggitygiggity]

What constitutes gunsmithing? Where is that line? Is threading a barrel gunsmithing? How about engraving a name on an AR lower with the costumer present/not present? How about manufacturing a gunstock? Stippling an AR grip without the rest of the gun present? Installing a custom barrel into a slide? Adding a sticker to an A2 buttstock?

I don’t know... I’d love to see what a subject matter expect like Frank digs up as I’ve often wondered about such things. Seems like a lot of slippery slopes that could land the courts in some problematic precedents and/or land some overambitious entrepreneurs behind bars.

 

[F-111 John]

As lomg as you are not working on an actual firearm, no FFL is needed.
ITAR is a different issue. Currently ITAR considers any machining work as "manufacturing", requiring yearly registration.

This. I am unsure of the current status of gunsmithing and ITAR.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/12/possible-progress-on-itar-regulation-of-gunsmiths/

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I’ve often wondered about such things. Seems like a lot of slippery slopes that could land the courts in some problematic precedents and/or land some overambitious entrepreneurs behind bars.

Not only slippery, but ill defined slopes.

What the statutes say:

1. 18 USC 921(a)(11)(B):

   (11)The term “dealer” means (A)... (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) ....quote].The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

   
   
2. 18 USC 921(a)(21)(D):

   (21)The term “engaged in the business” means—
   ...
   (D) As applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;...

ATF FAQ:

Is a license needed to engage in the business of engrav ng, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

Issues:

1. It looks like the OP intends to do this as a business, so he will be "engaged in the business."
   
   
2. I've found no cases dealing with the question. So we really don't know, for example, how a court will apply "occasional."
   
   
3. The penalty for being engaged in a business for which the GCA requires one to have a license is up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (plus a lifetime loss of gun rights).
   
   
4. There are reasons why someone who wants to run a gunsmithing business will want a federal license. What if to do the job properly the gunsmith needs to retain the receiver for a period of time? What if the gunsmith attracts customers from other States? Having the federal license resolves transfer and shipping complications.
   
   
5. Remember, it doesn't matter what you think the words mean or how the statutes will apply. What matters is what courts will think. A problem with there being an apparent dearth of case law is that we have no real guidance about how courts will view this.
   
   
6. The ITAR issue is unsettled.

 

[dogtown tom]

Frank Ettin:
18 USC 921(a)(11)(B):

(11)The term “dealer” means (A)... (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) ....quote].The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

Which would make my first post accurate. OP clearly stated he would not do repairs to anything involving the receiver.
And that makes your quote irrelevant.



​

What you see is irrelevant. It’s a matter of what the ATF, and a federal judge would be likely to see.

The receiver is the firearm. What can the gunsmith do without having possession of the receiver? .

Own an AR15?
People ship uppers all the time to have them threaded. The guy doing the threading doesn't need the lower receiver to do that.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...OP clearly stated he would not do repairs to anything involving the receiver. And that makes your quote irrelevant.....

Phooey!

I know what the OP said, but things also have a way of changing. So an apparently attractive opportunity outside the originally planned parameters comes up. Or someone else gets ideas after reading this thread and isn't terribly disciplined about circumscribing his activities. Or not enough business is coming someone's way so he's tempted to push the envelop.

Things happen, and it's a good idea to have the knowledge that could be helpful for dealing with circumstances one hasn't planned on.

... an AR15?
People ship uppers all the time to have them threaded. The guy doing the threading doesn't need the lower receiver to do that.

And a guy refinishing gun stocks doesn't necessarily need possession of the gun. So what?

 

[Gelrir]

Particular states may have issues with threaded barrels for semi-automatic weapons. It might vary by whether you have "constructive possession" of a threaded barrel and an receiver that the barrel can fit into ... in the same property, whether or not you own both components. A lawyer who knows your state's laws might know.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...A lawyer who knows your state's laws might know.

Good point.

In fact it’s a good idea for anyone starting a business, especially a highly regulated business, to engage and form a relationship with a qualified lawyer.

You can discuss your plans and questions confidentially with your lawyer. And he’ll be around to help with any legal problems that might come up.

 

[GE-Mini-Gun]

Tom, I think if he takes procession of the gun overnight he would need the FFL, as the gun would actually "transfer" to him at that point. However if he can do the work in a day he wouldn't need one. Could be wrong, but that is how I read the statutes

 

[boom boom]

This. I am unsure of the current status of gunsmithing and ITAR.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/12/possible-progress-on-itar-regulation-of-gunsmiths/

State Department is issuing new proposed final rules regarding ITAR treaty compliance and the new rules will have the Commerce Department take on enforcement instead of state on export licenses. It appears that it will have some effect on unnecessary ITAR licensing fees and regulatory compliance for small businesses. I just posted a thread on it in general discussions. The new rules have been sent to Congress for a 30 day review and will probably then go into effect absent any legal challenges.

 

[dogtown tom]

Tom, I think if he takes procession of the gun overnight he would need the FFL, as the gun would actually "transfer" to him at that point. However if he can do the work in a day he wouldn't need one. Could be wrong, but that is how I read the statutes

Please reread the OP.
He has NO INTENTION of taking possession of "the gun", and is very clear on that.
Hopefully Frank won't delete this post.

 

[GE-Mini-Gun]

Crap, my bad you are correct . Do not need the FFL...I need to not drink and type

 

[BSA1]

Slightly off topic but the O.P. needs to discuss his liability with a lawyer for his workmanship if he is sued, especially if it is claimed his work caused personal injury. That alone would cause me not to do this type of work for general public.

 

[edwardware]

I see no way that a man threading a carbon steel tube 1/2×28. . .

Similarly, I see no way a man cutting the same tube off 1" shorter constitutes a felony. . . but it does.

We're taking Malum Prohibitum law here. It is completely arbitrary, down to the roots.

 

[CoalTrain49]

How hard is it to just not do any of this work until you get your FFL and a proper business license.

If you accept money for any work you are technically in business or employed by most state statutes.

I honestly think you have more to worry about running up against the state or a local ordnance than you do the fed.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Please reread the OP.
He has NO INTENTION of taking possession of "the gun", and is very clear on that.
...

Actually, that's not what the OP said. What the OP said was:

...Specifically jobs that DO NOT have anything to do with the reciever like cutting and treading a barrel, repairing a stock, pinning and welding, etc.....

So no, he is not clear that he won't be taking possession of the receiver. Details are very important when dealing with legal matters. Even if the OP's work does not involve the receiver he might still wind up in possession of one.

For example, a client wants a stock repaired, but wants to leave the whole gun with the OP because the client doesn't want to fool with removing the "gun" from the stock. Or someone in another State hears about the great work the OP does and decides to ship his pre '64 Model 70 to the OP shorten the barrel, and he does so without first consulting the OP.

Unexpected, strange things happen all the time. And in my 30+ years of practice I've seen quite a few legal problems arise because someone does something unexpected.

Now the legal issues have been outlined, and I think the OP has some better idea of the choices he has, the decisions he needs to make, and the risks. So I'll close this thread for now.

If anyone has useful, important information he'd like to add, please send me a PM so that I can consider re-opening this thread.