HD: Questions about 410, choke, more

[mysteryj]

Hi all -

To say that I have limited firearm experience would be an understatement... but for the last few weeks as I've been planning on moving into my own house for the first time (no more apartment living), I've read up a bit on HD and believe I can ask at least marginally intelligent questions:

There's only going to be one occupied bedroom in the house, and it's not a condo or townhome, so I'm not particularly concerned about interior wall penetration. To that end, I imagine extra penetration could be desired if a BG puts me in a situation where I have to shoot (ie enters the room I'm in) and is trying to use cover.

I'm also in reasonably good shape and would expect that I'd be able to handle a 12ga if needed.

BUT, even if I can handle a 12ga and even if wall penetration isn't a concern, the only thing I expect to use my HD weapon for is just that, HD. I'm not a big fan of the idea of damaging my hearing, and if the range is almost never going to be more than 20 feet, wouldn't a 410 loaded with 00 buck be about as capable of taking down a target with the advantages of lower report and less recoil?

On that note, for those who would claim that a 410 lacks the power to stop a 200lb invader, does anyone have a story of someone being hit with buckshot from a 410 and not being dropped? (Where a bigger gauge gun would have made a difference?)

How do shotguns (and 410s in particular) stack up against body armor? Even if the shot doesn't penetrate the BG, would it still be like getting hit in the chest with a sledgehammer? (On the ground with the wind knocked out of you...)

Another question I have about any shotgun intended for HD use is the spread of the shot. All of the chokes offered on the various sites I've visited are the conventional variety which tighten the pattern thus enabling increased accuracy at greater distances, which I guess is great for hunting. The Mossberg HS410 purports to ship with a spreader choke, which I imagine is designed in such a way as to widen the pattern, which I am inclined to think would be a benefit in a close-range scenario, especially for someone like me for whom interior wall penetration isn't a concern. Are such chokes readily available? If I am convinced to purchase a 20ga or 12ga, would I be able to get a spreader choke for an 870 or a Moss 500? Even more intriguing is the "duckbill" choke I've read about which apparently puts out an oval shaped pattern.

I understand that shotguns aren't meant to be used in a sloppy fashion and that one must learn with practice how to accurately point the gun. (pointing vs. aiming) Having a wider pattern just seems like a nice advantage to have in addition to skills developed at the range.

If anyone has a link to a review of the Moss HS410, that'd be swell too.

Thanks!

 

[12GA00buck]

If over penetration is not a concern, and you can handle a 12GA, you may as well use one. You shouldn't be concerned about chokes at HD ranges, as the buckshot wont spread any significant distance under 20 yards. A .410 gauge with quality loads and good placement may work, but I prefer to stack the odds in my favor. A 12 or 20GA will shoot more lead faster than a .410. Regular foster slugs will penetrate lower level body armor, but not anything in the III class. Sabot slugs will penetrate most body armor, but you need a rifled barrel to make them effective. A rifled barrel may also spread your pattern wider, if that's what your looking for; no sure why though. I wouldn’t recommend any magnum loads, because the recoil, noise, flash, will lengthen follow up shots. Regular 2 3/4 inch buckshot loads will work fine. Shotgun defense ammo has been discussed extensively on THR, doing a search will yield more information than you'll care to read. Good Luck

 

[Scoupe]

Yes, .410 could work. There's only like 5 000 pellets in a 3" cartridge though.

While the .410 would not be as loud as a 12, it would be plenty loud enough to damage hearing indoors. I think most folks just figure the noise damage is a passable trade-off for not being dead.

Body armor will stop almost all shotguns as noted above. On the "knock-down" power issue though, nothing hand-held can knock someone off their feet from the sheer impact of being hit. If it could do that, the person holding the firearm would be knocked down from the recoil as well.

 

[bozoman]

Mossberg does not recommend the use of buck shot in the HS410.
I was told the only model safe to shoot buck shot was the one with cylinder bore barrel.

 

[toivo]

Mossberg makes an 18.5" cylinder-bore barrel in .410 for the Model 500. A cylinder bore is essentially "unchoked," although I guess a "spreader" choke would throw a wider pattern--I'm not familiar with them. You can get a standard 500 in .410 with a 24" full-choke barrel for around $200 from Gander et al and get the separate 18.5" cylinder-bore for around $80 direct from Mossberg. Give-or-take, $300 for a two-barrel .410 combo. What are they asking for the HS410? I'll bet it's that much or more.

With the combo, you'd have another barrel for if you got the urge to shoot some hand-thrown clays or some other fun pursuit. And you wouldn't have that dorky-looking pistol-grip forearm...

 

[suemarkp]

Some thoughts. The HS410 has a special barrel, and other barrels don't fit. Download the online manual and look for the * on the page that says this. If you want a 410, I'd suggest either the 410 cruiser (pistol gripped cyl bore) or a regular full choked 24" 410. Then, buy a normal rear stock if you bought the cruiser (in case you can't hit anything with the pistol grip stock), and buy a cylinder barrel for HD use if you bought the 24" full choke version.

A 12 or 20 gauge would be better, as they have more payload and better patterns. I'd go with the lower power 12 or 20 gauge rounds though if you're recoil sensitive. You'll have a huge selection of rounds in the 12 gauge, and could go to #4 buck or BB or hevishot or anything else you want. In 410, you don't have a lot of choice unless you want to handload. And you may want to handload anyway once you see what 410 shells cost.

You can roughly figure out how much recoil a given round will produce for comparative purposes. It is close to the shot weight times the velocity. There are many tables that show the shot weight and velocity, and that may even be on the box. But with buckshot, they only give the pellet count. You'd have to go look up how much each 00 or 1 or 4 buck pellet weights to find the total weight. Generally, 12ga rounds range from 1oz to 1.5oz payloads. The 410 ranges from 1/2oz to 3/4oz. All have similar velocities in the 1200 ft/sec range (except most slug loads which are way faster and typically lighter).

 

[bozoman]

The standard 500 in .410 is the one I was going to buy until they told me it was not recommended for 000 buck.
I don't like the dorky-looking pistol-grip forearm either.
I didn't know you could buy a cylinder-bore barrel from Mossberg.
I have very bad bone and joint problems and that is the reason I am considering another 410.
I have an old Stevens 410 double barrel that I used as a kid many moons ago!
I doubt it would be safe to use buck shot in this gun also and was looking for something with a little more capacity.
I was surprised that a new Mossberg was not compatible with buck shot.
They only have one model in 410ga recommended for buck and that is the one with the pistol grip(not for me)
I might get the regular full choke 410, use 3 inch#4 shot and cross my fingers in case of a home invasion.
Thanks to all.

 

[toivo]

bozoman--

The .410 cylinder-bore barrel isn't listed on Mossberg's website, but you can order it from them over the phone. I bought one, and as I remember it was under $80. I don't see why you couldn't use buckshot in it. It's the same barrel that comes on the Cruiser pistol-grip model. I think it's just the 24" full-choke that's taboo for buckshot.

suemarkp--

I'd go for the standard .410 and the extra barrel--in fact, I did. My reasoning is that then you have an extra barrel to play with instead of a pistol grip that you'll never use once you put the regular stock on. I think it would cost out about the same in the end. I always thought the reason for the pistol grip models was so that people could take this shotgun that they're never going to use and fit it in their trenchcoat or their sock drawer. (OK, pistol-grip-shotgun owners, I'm kidding--and they do look cool.)

 

[HeedJSU]

I have a .410 870 Wingmaster LT I considered leaving it loaded with duck loads at my finance's house untill I took it to the range to see what it would do against various targets. I wasn't real impressed. It is a FUN shotgun to shoot, and I currently have it loaded with slugs. (mainly for sharts and giggles, because they're not much good for HD unless you're an excellent shot) What I decided to go with is an old Stephens model b 20 ga. double barrel that was my grandfathers. He cut the barrel to 18.1", which makes a nice length for carry. It is louder than a .410, and the recoil is heavier, but I feel better about the amount of lead that is being thrown. One thing you have to remember, You're not going to practice with this thing indoors. IF you EVER have to actually SHOOT the thing at someone, the last thing you need to be worried about is your hearing. Since over penetration is not an issue, neither is recoil, go ahead ad get you a 12 ga. pump. Budsgunshop.com usually has a 870 with synthetic furnature on sale in the 300's. Here's a link. 870 Express, Black Synthetic

If you decide to go the double barrel route, you can usually find used ones at your local gun shop in pretty decent shape for decent prices. Good luck with your decision.

Justin

 

[toivo]

If anyone has a link to a review of the Moss HS410, that'd be swell too.

Here's one. More of a marketing review than anything else, but...

PS: They don't come with laser sights anymore, AFAIK.

 

[rustymaggot]

id recomend slugs for the 410 if its going to be used for hd. the reasoning behind this is that at indoor distances there will be little spread on the buckshot.
slugs are made of soft lead, are around 90-114 grain and are moving around 1700fps. they dont penetrate as deep as id want them to but they break apart and cause fairly spectacular wounds 5 inches deep.

 

[Fred Fuller]

JMHO, but...

If you CAN handle a 12 gauge, then there's no reason I can see in anything you posted not to USE a 12 gauge. You will have a lot wider selection/variety of guns, spare barrels and loads available to you than is the case with a .410. Muzzle blast in a 'for real' situation is not going to differ enough to be an issue, and in training/on the range you will be wearing hearing protection anyway. I'd go with the more versatile and effective 12 gauge given the choice.

Oh, and forget about the gimmicky chokes. A straight cylinder bore will do the open pattern number just fine, I prefer a touch of choke myself (ImpCyl) to even up patterns a bit but I like tighter patterns. If you really want "to whom it may concern" buckshot patterns, just buy some Sellier & Bellot buckshot and don't worry any further. That stuff scatters like flushed quail out of every gun I have ever shot it in.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

 

[bozoman]

Thanks for all the replies.
There won't be any training on the range due to health problems, concerning bone problems and a pinched nerve in my neck.
That and the fact I used to be a fairly good shot with the 410, is why I am trying to get one, that can safely fire buckshot.
I guess in a HD situation I need not worry about my existing physical problems.
I may just get a Remington 870 12ga or 20ga and 00 buck since this would be a one time deal.
Thanks again for all the suggestions.
Larry

 

[toivo]

mysteryj and bozoman:

Just FYI, here are some pics of my Mossberg 500 in .410, with the two different barrels.


18.5" cylinder-bore


24" fixed full-choke

If you only want the gun for HD, I'm sure you could sell the 24" barrel on eBay, Auction Arms, Gunbroker, etc. Also, if it's HD-only and you're not planning on doing much training, then the cost of .410 shells wouldn't be an issue for you.

 

[bozoman]

Thanks very much for the pictures.
I like the 24" fixed full-choke .
I might get one,load it up with 3 inch #4 shells I already have and later add the 18.5" cylinder-bore for buckshot.
Would anyone happen to know if my old Stevens model 530a 410ga would safely fire buckshot?
Thanks again.
Larry

 

[roo_ster]

mysteryj & bozoman:

An alternative you might find workable is a 20ga semi-auto. I had one of these as a kid & the recoil was VERY mild. At 10YO I could shoot any number of rounds of skeet & not be sore.

Mine was a Win 1400, but Remington's 1100 would be just fine, too, with larger capacity.

By all means, if .410 is what you are restricted to due to health or other problems, do get yourself a .410. It beats harsh language and pointy sticks.

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[toivo]

Thanks very much for the pictures.
I like the 24" fixed full-choke .

You're welcome. I don't know if you have a Gander Mountain near you, but the last time I was in there the Mossberg .410 with the 24" barrel was $199.