HD Shotgun vs AR

[Space Ghost]

Many people have so asserted here. Those ideas have not proved successful in shoot-house FoF scenarios.

Mirrors work both ways. Not for me.

Great idea.

You are limiting yourself to bad choices.

More likely outcomes of heading out to "investigate" are (1) get shot on sight or sound, or (2) shoot an innocent.

Neither idea appeals to me, and neither saves the child.

There are better ways than walking into a kill zone with a ten ring on your chest.

Not really. He's a killer, who does not care whom he kills.

Not too much of this applies, but some of it should tell you a lot.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0935878009/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mUshEbEHE9KQJ

So, who exactly do you expect is breaking into your house?

1. A criminal looking to steal stuff?
2. A Professional team of hired tier 1 operators... out to assassinate you personally... but not your children???

You sure you're just not just too damn scared to take the chance to try and save the kids? Tough buddy... life is scary. So is being a parent. You have a very small chance somebody will ever break in... If they ever do, chances are they're just looking to steal crap they can sell to get money the easy way. Even if they do have evil in their heats, they probably aren't gonna be a shoot house trained kill team... get real. Defend your damn home, or just stay in you bedroom and wait for them to kill everybody but you. Better yet, jump out your window, and run away...

 

[Kleanbore]

So, who exactly do you expect is breaking into your house?

1. A criminal looking to steal stuff?
2. A Professional team of hired tier 1 operators... out to assassinate you personally... but not your children???

The former--or more likely, two of them.

That tells us why they came.

...chances are they're just looking to steal crap they can sell to get money the easy way.

Of course.

That tells us nothing about what they are programmed to do the instant you come upon them.

If they are there for loot, whom are they more likely to shoot--your children, or an armed defender who stumbles upon them?

What good is a dead defender?

That's a very likely outcome, except in the screenplays that many shooters imagine and play in their minds.

..get real. Defend your damn home, or just stay in you bedroom and wait for them to kill everybody but you. Better yet, jump out your window, and run away...

You are being ridiculous.

If your home is breached, priority one is to get your loved ones to safety. It is not to find and engage the invaders.

Where people sleep is something that can have a major bearing on the safety of the others--not only from being intentionally harmed by the invaders, but from the tragedy of being unintentionally hit by the invaders. Take that into account.

Having a way to see whether anyone is in the house without sticking one's head into the line of fire can significantly reduce the risk.

The subject of "bumps in the night" has beeb discussed ad nauseam here over the last dozen years.

And still, there are people who continue to think that their guns will somehow prevent them from being harmed, or that their demise would somehow be honorable and more than useless.

Read the advice of Massad Ayoob and Rob Pincus on the subject. Watch some reruns of The Best Defense TV.

Did you read the book in the link?

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

How does your dying defend them?

I t would seem to appear that you haven't thought it through very wall..

Instead of telling everyone why they're dumb, why don't you just tell them what you want them to know?

I am growing a little tired of this "well ackshually... you will be killed" for ever. single. post.

 

[Kleanbore]

I am growing a little tired of this "well ackshually... you will be killed" for ever. single. post.

We have had dozens and dozens of posts describing ways to go about it, and Ayoob and Pincus have written some good stuff--which I mentioned.

"You will be killed" may be a slight understatement, but it is the likely outcome of traipsing round the house with gun in hand to investigate a bump in the night.

The substantiation for that has been posted over and over.

Yes, it gets tiresome--and so does the same 'ol same 'ol stuff about "investigating" around corners.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Yes, it gets tiresome--and so does the same 'ol same 'ol stuff about "investigating" around corners.

Which began with someone saying (correctly, IMO) that mobility of the firearm chosen for HD is a factor to be considered.

There is a reason people recommend shorter barreled long guns over, say, 30" barrel long guns for HD.
If mobility was not a factor, we would all install a cannon on a tripod.

And your counter of "Why do you need to move?" doesn't really add much value.
What if they DO need to move? Surely, in all your studies and experience you can come up with a reason yourself.

Why not have thought of the possibility of NEEDING to move rather than just tell folks that moving will get you killed.

I think everyone trying to justify to you their reasons for wanting a handy firearm knows that investigating around corners is not ideal. I think they also appreciate how dangerous that is.

 

[roo_ster]

Had wifey try all sorts of HD long guns when she decided she wanted one. Settled on a pump shotgun. The AR-15 was just too loud indoors. Even doubled up with plugs & muffs, it was too loud indoors. In our tiny house, with 8' celings, you are looking at permanent hearing damage. I have enough of that from Uncle Sam.

Similar deal with a .44mag carbine with 180gr JHP pills.

I ended up building up a HD shotgun from a Rem 870 12ga Police Mag 18" bead bbl:
Adapter that accepts AR15 buffer tubes
Hydraulic recoil-reducing buffer tube
Magpul 6-way adj stock with squishy recoil pad
Rem Express wingshooter forestock--longer back toward shooter so don't have to reach out as far.
Skateboard tape back portion of forestock to give tactile feedback as where to put hand
Streamlight TLR1 combat light & mount.
Fed Flightcontrol wad 00 low recoil buck

 

[Balrog]

How does your dying defend them?

I t would seem to appear that you haven't thought it through very wall..

OK Kleanbore, why don't you tell me what you would do since you seem to think you have the answer? I am open to suggestions.

Lets say you have small children on the opposite end of the house, maybe 50 feet from your bedroom and around a corner. The front and rear doors of the house are between you and them. They are not old enough to defend themselves. You hear a crash on the opposite end of the house. That is all you know. Its 3 am. What do you do?

 

[Kleanbore]

And your counter of "Why do you need to move?" doesn't really add much value.

It should, for those who have not really thought through what best to do in the event of a bump in the night, how moving may invite disaster, and ways to try to obviate the need to move in advance.

OK Kleanbore, why don't you tell me what you would do since you seem to think you have the answer?

We have gone over and over that for a dozen years, and there are good books on the subject.

Lets say you have small children on the opposite end of the house, maybe 50 feet from your bedroom and around a corner.

Do you really think it prudent to have to get to them from fifty feet away and move them a distance of fifty feet to get them to safety?

That sounds extremely risky; it does not sound like a strategy with a good expectation of success; and my going out with a gun would not offer much of a solution, except in the nexus of fantasyland and frontierland.

Can you come up with a way to improve the arrangements?

What my neighbor did, after thinking about it, was to move people around so that his children would not be so difficult to protect.

From the dozens and dozens of posts on this subject in the last dozen years, I think five things are most worth repeating:

1. The hunter is very likely to be victimized by the hunted, even in rooms that he knows well, and that are strange to them;
2. heading out with a gun at night is the most likely cause of an innocent being shot in the house;
3. it is best to stay put and listen, EXCEPT----
4. when there are children in other rooms, one MUST attend to their safety; that's risky but essential, and everything possible should be done beforehand to make it most likely to succeed;
5. there should be a plan, and everyone should know the plan.

Since those discussions began, technology has advanced by leaps and bounds. One can see who is at the door, coming around back, in the basement, or in the living room--without getting out of bed. One can speak to the person at the door.

You hear a crash on the opposite end of the house. That is all you know. Its 3 am. What do you do?

One word: technology.

Two other things:

1. Do not limit your thinking to bumps in the night--we have had some really terrifying incidents that occurred in the morning and in the afternoon.
2. When you consider the safety of your children, I suggest that you put fire safety ahead of protection against intruders, in terms of priority.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

It should, for those who have not really thought through what best to do in the event of a bump in the night, how moving may invite disaster, and ways to try to obviate the need to move in advance.

Like you said this has been covered. Why keep harping on about it?
Everyone know's it is not ideal. Covered. Accepted. no argument.

The question/concern at hand has little to do with what you keep posting. You have drifted the thread pretty far from "shotgun vs AR" and replaced it with "should you ever move.... ever?"

Surely, you must have the tripod mounted canon, then?

We have gone over and over that for a dozen years, and there are good books on the subject.

Do you really think it prudent to have to get to them from fifty feet away and move them a distance of fifty feet to get them to safety?

That sounds extremely risky; it does not sound like a strategy with a good expectation of success; and my going out with a gun would not offer much of a solution, except in the nexus of fantasyland and frontierland.

Can you come up with a way to improve the arrangements?

What my neighbor did, after thinking about it, was to move people around so that his children would not be so difficult to protect.

From the dozens and dozens of posts on this subject in the last dozen years, I think five things are most worth repeating:

1. The hunter is very likely to be victimized by the hunted, even in rooms that he knows well, and that are strange to them;
2. heading out with a gun at night is the most likely cause of an innocent being shot in the house;
3. it is best to stay put and listen, EXCEPT----
4. when there are children in other rooms, one MUST attend to their safety; that's risky but essential, and everything possible should be done beforehand to make it most likely to succeed;
5. there should be a plan, and everyone should know the plan.

Since those discussions began, technology has advanced by leaps and bounds. One can see who is at the door, coming around back, in the basement, or in the living room--without getting out of bed. One can speak to the person at the door.

One word: technology.

Two other things:

1. Do not limit your thinking to bumps in the night--we have had some really terrifying incidents that occurred in the morning and in the afternoon.
2. When you consider the safety of your children, I suggest that you put fire safety ahead of protection against intruders, in terms of priority.

Experts recommend shorter barreled long guns for HD and such (when appropriate)... and it is for a reason.

I do wonder what that reason could possibly be...

It was weird for me to read you posts on this thread. Normally I find your posts wise and beneficial. Instead I find a bunch of nay-sayer stuff for what appears to be for the sake of nay-saying.

 

[jmorris]

Kind of funny thinking kids are completely helpless, since I was 13, my Brother or I were always the best armed in our parents house.

 

[Kleanbore]

Why keep harping on about it?

You keep discussing "mobility"

Experts recommend shorter barreled long guns for HD and such (when appropriate)... and it is for a reason.

I do wonder what that reason could possibly be...

Obviously, a carbine or a shotgun with a a short barrel will be much easy to wile in close quarters than a long arm.--whether in a bedroom, a den, a "safe room", or the gun room.

Do you know of any experts who suggest that a civilian move tghough his house armed with a long gun, or that a single LEO do so in a building?

Most experts do understand the need to get others to safely, unless they are themselves armed and trained to defend themselves., as in

Kind of funny thinking kids are completely helpless, since I was 13, my Brother or I were always the best armed in our parents house.

Would you not think a handgun more suited to that task?

Instead I find a bunch of nay-sayer stuff for what appears to be for the sake of nay-saying.

If the question is, should I grab a shotgun and go out to navigate around corners to see what might be up, the only answer is NAY, NAY, NAY.

What I put in Post #133 covered much more.

Shotgun or AR in the confines of a room? That was covered well in the posts before this aspect was introduced. Sound pressure, recoil and controllability, ammunition capacity., wall penetration....

I thought about those things for some time in the past, but discarded the idea of either one.

My reason? I think it much less likely that I will be in the room where the gun is than somewhere else should a break-in occur, and quite likely thatiI would lose a foot race to the gun in the event of a sudden forcible entry. The former has to do with the hours on the clock, and the latter, to our floor plans, and the location of possible points of ingress, stairs, and doors.. Your mileage may vary.

For me , the only prudent answer is a handgun on my person.

I can bring it out in seconds, no small person can mishandle it, and I do not have to put it on when I leave the house.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Do you know of any experts who suggest that a civilian move tghough his house armed with a long gun, or that a single LEO do so in a building?

No.

And everyone agrees. It's a bad idea. Can we possibly move on from that?

If the question is, should I grab a shotgun and go out to navigate around corners to see what might be up, the only answer is NAY, NAY, NAY.

has that ever been the question?

For me , the only prudent answer is a handgun on my person.

I can bring it out in seconds, no small person can mishandle it, and I do not have to put it on when I leave the house.

Great.

I advocate for home carry as well.

AR's and shotguns are used in HD.
The thread is about which is better.

And with that. I'm out.

Edited because yeesh.

 

[Kleanbore]

has that ever been the question?

Actually, no, my mistake--the issue was navigating around corners, but the poster did mention that long arms are not conducive to that.

Not withstanding the cuhoice of firearm, navigating around corners is a poor idea if something may be up.

And "investigation" snd "mobility" came up, too, if you recall.

 

[Balrog]

Kind of funny thinking kids are completely helpless, since I was 13, my Brother or I were always the best armed in our parents house.

How well armed were you when you were a 6 yr old girl?

 

[Balrog]

It should, for those who have not really thought through what best to do in the event of a bump in the night, how moving may invite disaster, and ways to try to obviate the need to move in advance.

We have gone over and over that for a dozen years, and there are good books on the subject.

Do you really think it prudent to have to get to them from fifty feet away and move them a distance of fifty feet to get them to safety?

That sounds extremely risky; it does not sound like a strategy with a good expectation of success; and my going out with a gun would not offer much of a solution, except in the nexus of fantasyland and frontierland.

Can you come up with a way to improve the arrangements?

I generally agree with you that a defensive position would be best, but I am not sure that is always possible

What my neighbor did, after thinking about it, was to move people around so that his children would not be so difficult to protect.

From the dozens and dozens of posts on this subject in the last dozen years, I think five things are most worth repeating:

1. The hunter is very likely to be victimized by the hunted, even in rooms that he knows well, and that are strange to them;
2. heading out with a gun at night is the most likely cause of an innocent being shot in the house;
3. it is best to stay put and listen, EXCEPT----
4. when there are children in other rooms, one MUST attend to their safety; that's risky but essential, and everything possible should be done beforehand to make it most likely to succeed;
5. there should be a plan, and everyone should know the plan.

Since those discussions began, technology has advanced by leaps and bounds. One can see who is at the door, coming around back, in the basement, or in the living room--without getting out of bed. One can speak to the person at the door.

One word: technology.

Two other things:

1. Do not limit your thinking to bumps in the night--we have had some really terrifying incidents that occurred in the morning and in the afternoon.
2. When you consider the safety of your children, I suggest that you put fire safety ahead of protection against intruders, in terms of priority.

There really isn't a way to move people around due to the architecture of the house. Not without a major renovation. I have security cameras at all entrances and glass break detectors in all rooms. Cameras are only good if they are monitored, which isn't likely at 3 am. I am not sure about motion sensors outside because we live in a rural area and its not uncommon for a racoon or possum to get on the porch. Understand also that my point was not that I was going to go on some kind of house-clearing raid, but rather make it to the kids and make sure they are OK.

Also let me get your input on this scenario. For purposes of discussion, we will assume you are alone in the house so you don't have to contend with the children issue:

You hear a noise at 3 am that wakes you up. You are not sure what it is. You wouldn't necessarily be sure that someone is breaking in. Maybe the cat just knocked over a vase. You look at your monitors and don't see anything. You are not exactly sure where the noise came from. I think you are saying to maintain a defensive position in your bedroom, right?

If so, do you call the police just because you heard a noise?

How long do you stay in your defensive position?

 

[Kleanbore]

There really isn't a way to move people around due to the architecture of the house. Not without a major renovation.

I see.

I have security cameras at all entrances and glass break detectors in all rooms.

Great.

Cameras are only good if they are monitored, which isn't likely at 3 am.

Cameras are only good if they are monitored, which isn't likely at 3 am.

Can you not look when the occasion demands? We do.

I am not sure about motion sensors outside because we live in a rural area and its not uncommon for a raccoon or possum to get on the porch.

Been there! Possums, raccoons. cats, squirrels, rabbits..

Understand also that my point was not that I was going to go on some kind of house-clearing raid, but rather make it to the kids and make sure they are OK.

Okay. Risky but necessary, unless you can rely on cameras inside the house, which would be preferable if you can.

Suggestion: Hire some fit young people with AirSoft guns to test your tactics. Pay them well, but only if you lose. Adapt and modify your lighting, tactics, hall furniture, etc. as indicated.

You hear a noise at 3 am that wakes you up. You are not sure what it is. You wouldn't necessarily be sure that someone is breaking in. Maybe the cat just knocked over a vase. You look at your monitors and don't see anything. You are not exactly sure where the noise came from. I think you are saying to maintain a defensive position in your bedroom, right?

If so, do you call the police just because you heard a noise?

How long do you stay in your defensive position?

Excellent questions. The same ones have been asked over and over, and discussed by experts, including some who have learned from training more applicable than mine.

Search on tTHR on house clearing, bump in the night, etc. Take the time. Go back at least before about 2010.

Read what Ayoob and Pincus have to say in their articles and books.

Full disclosure: On several occasions (more than a decade and some years ago) set out w with a gun to check things out. The consensus of the mods and experts in those discussions (I was new then) was that the only reason I didn't end up in trouble is that there was no one there.

Exception: once a man pushed his way into our house behind a woman who had rung the doorbell (lesson leaned: don''t answer the door to strangers). He knocked my mother down and threatened to kill both women. I surreptitiously come down with a handgun, surprised him when he could not grab his intended victims, and administered some industrial strength coaching.

"Maintain a defensive position"? Not under those circumstances. No indication of need. The consensus was to stay put and listen.

 

[Balrog]

How long do you stay put and listen?

 

[jmorris]

How well armed were you when you were a 6 yr old girl?

I never was a 6 year old girl but I did have one once. She had a 12 ga shotgun one step from the bed a 9mm within reach and a 380 near by in the room she slept in and enjoyed hogging the covers then kicking them off....Not my idea for sure but my wife must have felt like you and wanted her child to sleep in the safest room in the house.

 

[Balrog]

I never was a 6 year old girl but I did have one once. She had a 12 ga shotgun one step from the bed a 9mm within reach and a 380 near by in the room she slept in and enjoyed hogging the covers then kicking them off....Not my idea for sure but my wife must have felt like you and wanted her child to sleep in the safest room in the house.

Interesting. 1st graders with access to guns. Very interesting. Was she able to handle that 12 gauge well when she was 6?

 

[jmorris]

The bed she slept in was the same one I slept in.

Not 50 feet away on the other side of the house where marauders and bandits could snatch her up before I could get there.

 

[Balrog]

The bed she slept in was the same one I slept in.

Not 50 feet away on the other side of the house where marauders and bandits could snatch her up before I could get there.

Ah, gotcha. Our plan is a split design with bedrooms on opposite ends of the same house. Same tactics don't apply I suppose.

 

[Space Ghost]

If your home is breached, priority one is to get your loved ones to safety. It is not to find and engage the invaders.

This is the single most important thing. It's what I've been saying! And it seems to be the basis of what we have been having our disagreement about. Just how do you go about getting to the kids's bedrooms to check on them... without leaving your place of relative safety, and negotiating around inside your home? Secret passages? If you are in the master bedroom, and the bad guys take it upon themselves to go upstairs, and check in on the kiddies... you're humped. And so are the little ones if they don't go by the plan, or are too little to go by the plan. That baby monitor won't do anything for you except allow you to listen to/watch their deaths... You damn sure don't want them coming to you. YOU need to take the risk, and go get them. YOU have the skill, and training to deal with the bad guy should you run into him on the way. Not saying go all "Charge of the light brigade" here, but you cannot go through life avoiding every single risk... What better thing to take a risk for than the lives of your children? Parenting 101... it's in the job description.

 

[jmorris]

Another example of a system that could be used for early warning.

Not only is it IR motion alerts like the stuff I have around the house but it even sends photos with the alerts.

This is at our farm an hour and a half away right now.

 

[Balrog]

If you use outside motion sensors for early warning and live in a rural area where there is wildlife, how do you avoid false alarms all night?

 

[Kleanbore]

YOU need to take the risk, and go get them.

Yes indeed.

Frank Ettin posted tis in November, 2010:

Of course, if he's coming through your kid's window, or if there are members of the household unaccounted for, you need to go and deal with that.

You're going to need to decide if you think the "bump in the night" is an intruder or something benign. You'll have to decide if any members of the household not with you may be in immediate risk. And you'll need to decide how to handle it.​

YOU have the skill, and training to deal with the bad guy should you run into him on the way.

Don't rely upon any baseless assumptions you might make any assumptions about you skill vs that of one who may hav benefitted from a lot of tactical training in prison.

Don't forget that there is a lot more to the equation than skill.

Again, from Frank:

Anyone who has had decent training and/or has had experience going looking for a bad guy will tell you (1) it is properly a group activity; (2) the guy you're hunting has a great tactical advantage; and (3) it's not something anyone who knows what he is doing wants to do, nor will he do it unless he absolutely must (e. g., to find and protect unaccounted for, known innocents).

Whatever you decide to do, if there is an intruder who is willing to engage you, and you go looking for him, he will have a tremendous tactical advantage. That is a basic fact of life.
​

Okay, you are not "looking for him". But if you do encounter him, he will surely believe otherwise, and the likely outcome is the same..

Just how do you go about getting to the kids's bedrooms to check on them... without leaving your place of relative safety, and negotiating around inside your home?

If the floor plans require anyone who goes out checking to expose himself to potential ambush by someone who is likely to shoot on sight or shoot on sound, which the defender cannot do, One has to be creative--before the fact.

I recommend that people in that situation consider the installation of CCTV, sound monitors, and intercoms.

What better thing to take a risk for than the lives of your children?

What good is taking the risk, if you lose? Who will protect them then?

Reminds me of the old saw about "giving your life for your Country", rather than making the other bloke......