Heat effects on shotguns

[Frostbite]

Hello everyone,

I read something the other day, most likely on THR, which has since been circling in the back of my head.

It was about shotguns being tested for reliability by firing 200 rounds as fast as one can.

As I mentioned before, I am soon to be the proud new owner of a brand new pump shotgun and I have no experience with those intriguing weapons. Having shot only a few rifles a lot in my life, I have been told more than a few times to be careful in not overheating a rifle's barrel with sustained fire, most especially by the gentlemen at the gun range when they watched me having quite some fun shooting my .270 Win. BAR. I was told it would negatively affect the accuracy of the said rifle. So I calmed down and focused on quality. I still do have some fun with rapid fire, but not as often and only with the .22 LR, as I was told by the same great guys that it would not affect it as much.

Now, you must see that one coming, so I might as well ask it right away: does the heat produced by rapid sustained fire really have a negative effect on weapons (I would guess it is true) and if so, why would anyone want to test a shotgun in a manner which would potentially be bad for it?

Thank you once again for your support in my education.

 

[rcmodel]

Yes, it for sure does on a 55,000 PSI rifle caliber like the .270 burning 50 or more grains of powder each shot. You can burn a high velocity rifle barrel out in no time flat if you don't let it cool down during rapid fire occasionally.

Not at all on a 12,000 PSI shotgun burning only 1/5 as much powder each shot, at 1/3 the velocity.

Your shoulder will give out firing a shotgun as fast as you can shoot & reload it, Long Before the shotgun ever will.

Two completely different animals between the two.

Bottom line = Yes you can easily burn out the rifling throat in small to medium caliber rifle barrel with rapid fire and no barrel cooling.

Not possible with a smoothbore (or rifled) shotgun barrel due to the low pressures, velocity, and very large bores involved for the burning powder to escape through.

Rc

 

[Jim K]

Unless someone has invented a 200 shell magazine tube, I wouldn't worry. Even with a rifle like the BAR, unless you have extended magazines and a loader, it would be difficult to fire fast enough to affect the barrel. (Now if it were the M1918A2 BAR, that might be another story!)

In any case, a shotgun barrel will last longer as the shells shoot cooler and there is no rifling to wear out, and there is plenty of cooling time while a pump gun is reloaded. (Again assuming it is not some kind of "high tech" shotgun with super hi-capacity magazines.)

Jim

 

[Frostbite]

Thanks a lot Rc, one again, you are most helpful. I really appreciate your contribution to THR. I know I do not post a lot, but I do read a lot. So much to learn.

 

[Drail]

deleted

 

[Frostbite]

No Jim, nothing fancy here. Very cheap shotgun which should have arrived in March after it was ordered in December (read my impatience growing: I will miss turkey season because of a Turkey made barrel, grrr). As for the BAR, it is a BAR I, bought new in 1993, and I own only one standard 4 shots magazine. So, I guess, rapid fire is not as rapid as some can make it with their own different equipment. Still, the metal did change colour once, so I did calm down after that and the comments of the nice folks at the shooting range.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Heat can sometimes cause problems in extraction in shotguns. I ran into that in a shotgun class when we were doing a drill called Rolling Thunder. But that drill only requires about 15 rounds to be fired fairly rapidly. It's the mental effort to shoot the proper number of rounds at the proper time that makes the drill challenging, plus the physical necessity of keeping the shotgun loaded enough to shoot what you're supposed to when you're supposed to.

I've heard a 200 round break-in period suggested for certain pistols, but never heard that proffered as a necessity for shotguns.

Here's a Rolling Thunder drill, the first run with a short relay (3 shooters). Subsequent runs (IME) would shift the count, with the second shooter in the 3-shooter relay firing one shot, third shooter firing two, first shooter firing three and yelling clear, with the count progressing from there. Awerbuck likes to start later runs with a random shooter in the relay and let everyone count up from there. The bigger the relay the more you wind up shooting, because you have to count up higher before you're done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjptCoMvqEQ

 

[Frostbite]

The 200 rounds fired quickly was recommended to prove the reliability of a shotgun intended for home defence or self defence if I remember correctly. Something related to a certain Mr Ayoob, whom would be an expert in that field of expertise.

 

[loose noose]

I know quite a few years ago I had a Savage Pump I believe the model 67 with a single rail. While shooting ducks, coming into a secluded pond in quite a flurry for some time, I noted the slide would bind up after the gun got hot. Needless to say I finally got rid of that shotgun as it was a pos.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Just get a Mossberg M590A1 combat shotgun with the heavy wall barrel if you are worried about overheating.

The .mil adopted the M590A1 for a reason.

 

[oneounceload]

The 200 rounds fired quickly was recommended to prove the reliability of a shotgun intended for home defence or self defence if I remember correctly. Something related to a certain Mr Ayoob, whom would be an expert in that field of expertise.

If you need to fire 200 rapidly in defense of yourself or your home, then you need a SAW. I would like to see some evidence where that necessity was actually needed.

 

[rcmodel]

The .mil adopted the M590A1 for a reason.

But the reason wasn't a hot barrel.

It was to prevent dents bends in the barrel when using it as a jack handle in combat.

rc

 

[Panzerschwein]

But the reason wasn't a hot barrel.

It was to prevent dents bends in the barrel when using it as a jack handle in combat.

rc

Well most people agree it was to keep it from denting when banging against things and it also allows sustained rapid fire without warping the barrel.

 

[19-3Ben]

it also allows sustained rapid fire without warping the barrel.

I don't know that it would have been a problem anyway.
Is there any record anywhere of a Winchester 97, or model 12, Ithaca Model 37, or any other older pump-shotguns used by our military overheating in combat?
Sure I've heard of automatic weapons overheating and warping white hot barrels, etc... but based on what I've read, the adoption of the Mossberg 590 was about resistance to being abused (as RC mentioned), not due to other designs overheating. I really can't imagine where the heavy barrel would help a shotgun very much in that regard.

 

[Frostbite]

If you need to fire 200 rapidly in defense of yourself or your home, then you need a SAW. I would like to see some evidence where that necessity was actually needed.

I am sorry, I might have been unclear. Forgive me please, English is not my first language, but I really do try my best. I meant the 200 rounds test was supposed to establish the reliability of the shotgun so one could count on it without the slightest doubt in the eventuality where it would have to be used as a HD shotgun. I truly wish nobody ever has to shoot 200 rounds to defend home and do not advocate that as a credible scenario. I do not believe in zombies.

 

[Frostbite]

Just get a Mossberg M590A1 combat shotgun with the heavy wall barrel if you are worried about overheating.

For the foreseen intended use of that particular weapon, i.e. breaking clay birds to learn how to use it and then hunt with it, I do not worry about overheating. I was simply inquiring about the effects of heat on shotguns with the 200 rounds test in mind as being contradictory to what little I thought I already knew about guns in general.

Theory is as important as practice to me; one cannot know too much.

As for the M590A1, it seems like a great combat shotgun, but I do not need such a device at this time and I wish I never will.

 

[rcmodel]

Is there any record anywhere of a Winchester 97, or model 12, Ithaca Model 37, or any other older pump-shotguns used by our military overheating in combat?

No.
There isn't.

And its sure not because they were not ever fired fast enough to get too hot to touch.
Thats why they had hand-guards on trench shotguns.
To protect the hand from a hot barrel when you went to Bayonet fighting in the trenches.

Certainly not because they had sewer-pipe thick barrels.
Because they didn't.

It is simply impossible to shoot & reload a pump shotgun fast enough to warp the barrel.

Rc

 

[oneounceload]

5 or 6 shots fired will get the barrel too hot to touch. If you doubt that, look to the English who use gloves or leather foreend adapters to shoot those SxS with splinter foreends. Will that cause the solder to fail? Not hardly, but your fingers will get toasty if not protected. As the owner of several SxS guns with splinter foreends, I can attest to the barrels getting too hot to handle, but not so hot as to warp or come apart

 

[Hangingrock]

The 200 rounds fired quickly was recommended to prove the reliability of a shotgun intended for home defense or self defense if I remember correctly. Something related to a certain Mr. Ayoob, whom would be an expert in that field of expertise.

I often wonder how these numbers are arrived at or is it simply the WAG principle being applied.

 

[rcmodel]

I agree.

Why not 7 boxes = 175 rounds?
Or 9 boxes = 225 rounds?

Even a case would be 10 boxes = 250 rounds.

rc

 

[Dr.Rob]

I've got a barrel hot enough to burn my fingers. Long day of feeding a pump gun and endless clays. I am not sure of the round count, but it was many boxes.

 

[oneounceload]

A thin-walled SxS can get that way after a few shots, which is why most of us either wear a glove, or use a leather covered steel handguard. This is especially true if it has a splinter forearm.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Practically any modern repeating shotgun will be far more reliable than the person shooting it . There may be some questions of certain ammunition reliability /performance etc. in a given shotgun, but those sorts of concerns are far better answered through formal training (with an instructor) and frequent practice sessions, than with a single rapid fire session of 200 rounds.

Most people who keep a shotgun as a defensive firearm don't even own 200 rounds of slugs and buckshot to put through it at one session... there are lots more good repeating shotguns out there, than there are good shotgun shooters. And the best way to develop confidence in your shotgun as a defensive weapon is to develop confidence in yourself as a shooter.

 

[19-3Ben]

Most people who keep a shotgun as a defensive firearm don't even own 200 rounds of slugs and buckshot to put through it at one session...

I'd be willing to wager that most people don't put 200 rounds through a defensive shotgun period. Probably 25-50 to ensure that it works, and then it sits in a corner of the bedroom, only getting pulled out to the range once every few years to have a 25 round box of birdshot put through it.

 

[oneounceload]

^^^ More truth than fiction. Mine has been fired about 6 times in the last decade, and that was by a friend's daughter to make sure she knew how to work it.