Heller and the Current MG Laws

[The_Shootist]

Ok - being optimistic about the outcome of Heller and taking the current fully auto laws into consideration. Seems like its a ban simply by way of price - namely no new fully auto rifles can be transferred (ie manufactured) forcing current SMG prices into the stratosphere.

Couldn't that be considered a de facto "ban" by virtue of affordability? If the 2A is held to be an indvidual right, how could you draw a line. I mean the thought that these weapons are too "dangerous" to be in circulation just seems thin, given that semi auto handguns/rifles are just moderately less dangerous.

It seems that under the "too dangerous for public safety" ban intent by Federal or State Gov'ts would then be pretty precarious. You'd pretty much just have to allow crossbows in circulation

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

The only danger posed by a machine gun is when it's empty and you must rely upon it to defend against greater numbers than yourself.

The ban on the sale of new machine guns to those of us not in government is not a de facto ban. It's an in your face, honest to God, no kiddin' ban.

Saying it's not really a ban is like saying even though certain arms have been banned, we can still exercise our right to keep and bear arms with other arms that are not banned or are grandfathered. The Second Amendment is not about us exercising our right to keep and bear arms, but about forbidding those in government to infringe the right.

Whether it's a ban on the sale to us of new machine guns, a limitation on how short a shotgun barrel can be, or that you must pass a check of records kept on you that shouldn't exist on the law abiding in the first place, it is an infringement. Keep the onus upon those in government who have infringed the right and/or refuse to remove the infringements. We are not asking for anything that isn't ours to begin with; we're asking for that which is ours to be left alone. Is having a right stolen from us by virtue of infringement by those in government any less unlawful than the theft of our means of barter, our sustenance, or possessions stolen by a freelance criminal?

Don't be fooled into silence by the diversions. Stay on track. Reasonable restrictions, compelling government interests, the imposition of rationalizations, and any "levels" of scrutiny other than strict are infringements. There is no justification for disobeying or dishonoring the Constitution, especially when there is a process that can be followed to amend the Constitution. The mere presence of that process in the Constitution is all the proof needed to show that the Founding Fathers expected the Constitution to be abided and did not include a "rationalization" clause in the Constitution.

If someone has a better idea, put it on the table as a proposed amendment and let it stand or fall as We the People so choose. The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land we the people set for the government to abide. If those in government wish us to abide their laws, they need to abide the Constitution first, foremost and always. I see no way we can trust those in government unless those in government abide the Constitution.

Woody

Our government was designed by our Founding Fathers to fit within the framework of our rights and not vise versa. Any other "interpretation" of the Constitution is either through ignorance or is deliberately subversive. B.E. Wood

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

namely no new fully auto rifles can be transferred (ie manufactured) forcing current SMG prices into the stratosphere.

Well they can (and are) manufactured, it's just that they won't allow us peons to register them so, yeah, it's a ban. Maybe they should ban toilet paper that's not registered by March 24th 2008 forcing the price to go ballistic too. At least that would get more people's attention.
Registered machine guns aren't used in crimes. The only one I've heard about is a cop that killed his wife with his Mac-10 (well they are more professional, after all...)
There have probably been far more rubber band related fatalities than machine guns in the last 75 years. Hopefully we can at least get rid of the hughes amendment from the 1986 GCA (which was passed under shady and uncertain conditions anyway) and open the registry back up. Considering track records, it would be safer than just about any other consumer product out there. MG owners are safe, and protect what they have.

 

[Rmeju]

Shootist,

On Heller, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves (at least as a practical matter) with the machine gun thing.

That said, as a tangent point, I would like to submit that machine guns are less dangerous than any semi-auto rifle/shotgun, and certainly arguable on pistols or revolvers.

The primary weakness of the machine gun is that it wastes too many bullets! It's right there in the Army's full-auto tactics manual (which I was required to read before going to Baghdad as a SAW gunner). This was a weakness that I personally experienced in real situations.

The role of the machinegun is far better suited to winning the suppressive fire than it is for racking up a body count in a restaurant. For this purpose, the semi-auto is (speaking in terms of cold, hard math) far more deadly in the criminal/psychotic scenario.

In the crowded theatre scenario, the full-auto M4 is going to kill much fewer people than the semi-auto version. When you put some though into it, it makes sense, because the machine gun is wasting what i'd be willing to bet is about 75% of its killing power on stray shots and overkill, whereas the semi-auto version could, in far less competent hands, make kills much more efficiently.

Just something I wanted to throw out there. I don't think many people are ready to hear that argument, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Reid

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Well said Reid, and very true.

I don't think many people are ready to hear that argument

Ready or not, the time may be coming that they will. If the courts hear it they'll not be able to stick their heads in the sand or plug their ears and say "LALALALA" at the top of their lungs, they'll have to look at the cold-hard facts, which contradict everything hollywood and the mainstream media has fed them their whole lives.
Like a local AM talk radio billboard once said: "Ignorance isn't bliss. It's ignorance"