Help me help a coworker

[BigBL87]

As I am the "gun guy" at my place of employment, one of my supervisors recently came to me with a gun question.

Said supervisor and her husband recently got their FOID cards (love our Illinois freedoms, but I digress). Her husband just bought a Beretta handgun. She doesn't know which one although she said it was "expensive." I'm guessing it is a 92/M9 or PX4 Storm, but don't know for sure. Anyway, she wants to have a long gun in addition to the handgun. Her main uses are for coyotes and other varmints around the property and as a home defense option. She wants to stay as cheap as possible, I think $500 is probably top end but even that is high for what she wants to spend. She is also concerned about fired traveling outside their property, they live in the country and have houses about a mile each directions but she's still concerned so it is what it is.

The FFL her husband went through suggested a bolt action .223 w/ a scope included for around $300, just knowing that she wanted a rifle for coyote. I told her that would be good for coyotes and varmints but not so much for home defense. There is one other gun guy here at work, and we've suggested:

-.410 or 20 gauge shotgun (she really doesn't want to get a shotgun, and we can't seen to break her of that

-Keltec Sub 2000 (I suggested this mainly because of the Beretta handgun, assuming it is a 92. I don't see them shooting ALOT, and being able to share mags and ammo with the handgun would be nice.)

-Lever Action in .357 Mag, .44 Mag, or .45 Colt (Mainly looking at Rossi for cost. Even though the 357 costs more up front, I suggested it because they could easier afford the ammo to become proficient and just generally get familiar with it. She also really liked these when I showed them to her.)

Of course, I also suggested firearms classes for both of them and offered to help in any other way I could.

So, does anybody have any additional ideas? I think she wants to stay away from .223 just because she's afraid it will carry too far, I may be able to break her of that but I don't think an AR is in their future just from talking to her.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Even a .22LR can travel outside her acclaimed distances so in that concern they would have to be aware and competent of trajectory. In that apsect a HP .22LR or even better a .22M would likely take care of their Coyote problem.

As far as doubling as a home defense firearm anything bolt action does not fit the bill IMHO. Most shotguns wouldn't really be practical for varmints at a distance. Really a cheap AR sounds like the best bet so long as their not shooting at or above the horizon.

In addition to how close they are shooting to neighbors I'd advise checking on how close they are to public roads. That's also something noteworthy to be aware of concerning laws.

 

[bannockburn]

BigBL87

How about a Beretta CX4 Storm carbine? It will use the same magazines as their Beretta pistol, is relatively compact, easy to use, can take various optical sights along with a side mounted flashlight, and would work well on both outdoor predators and indoor ones as well.

 

[markallen]

Hi point.
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/Hi-Point-carbines/9MM_carbine.html
Uses the same ammo. You can use stock ten round magazines, or the Red Ball twenty round magazines.
Very inexpensive Carbine, but they do run.
Scores on your home defense.
Scores on your varmint control.
Easy recoil.
And they are very accurate.
Will handle +p.
Will accept optics.
The ts model has rails all around the fore grip to mount things.
Plus...Full lifetime warranty of the GUN, no matter who owns it. No questions asked.

 

[hso]

Perhaps the question is how big is the property, what separates it from the neighbors' houses and what do they have on it they want to protect from coyotes? They should know where the neighbors are and not fire in that direction regardless of whether a varment is between them and the neighbor or not.

The 20 gauge is probably the best suggestion since it can be loaded with shot or slugs and can be kitted up with a scope. They can even get a Beretta if they want, even though a less expensive Mosberg would do as well.

The shared magazine issue is more theoretical. There's little chance they'd ever perform a magazine change (or train to do a tactical change) and that can be accomplished with what fits any carbine they get. In reality any 5.56 55gr is going to be less penetrating and more likely to come apart in building materials than just about anything short of a .22lr.

 

[BigBL87]

I have explained the ability of bullets to carry distances, and while she seems a little less hesitant, she still does not seem to like the idea of a .223. In the same vein, she's not a big fan of the AR's because of the "tactical" look, which may preclude the Beretta carbine as well but I will bring it up.

Re: the Hi Point, I had considered it and did let her know about it. With how complex it is to break down and clean, though, neither of us thought it would be a good option.

They are primarily looking to protect their chickens from varmints. They lost a whole "flock" to something last year, they're not 100% sure what it was though. My supervisor wants whatever she gets do be able to double for home defense simply because she's more comfortable with the idea of a long gun than a handgun in a high pressure situation.

I'm really leaning towards recommending the lever action heavily, simply because she likes the looks and function, and I feel like a 20 inch lever could be usable inside the house and have the power for coyote. I appreciate the suggestions and invite more, the more ideas and information the better.

 

[SwaneeSR]

After thinking about this a while...

I can understand why you would be leaning towards a non-scary looking lever action in a pistol caliber.

Honestly though, from a functionality, cost, home defense, and varmint control..

A Remington 870 Express or Mossberg 500 would be best. I am not sure 12g or 20g. Depends on the shooter, 12g 8 shot is not very stout. It would work for everything you mentioned except for that 60 - 100 yard coyote shot. It would allow the owns to go check on the disturbance in the chicken coop.

Think about the fact they are new gun owners. I started out with a single-shot .22LR. They really should have a .22LR rifle of some type around. That does not meet the HD requirement.

I would think anything tactical is out of the question. I know a little expensive, but a $600 AR would accomplish everything they need with good ergonomics and low recoil. Only the cost is a little high and looks scary and maybe they need an easier first step.

Since they already have a pistol it would be good to eventually have a simple shotgun and simple bolt-action rifle to round things out. A .22LR rifle is handy and fun to plink with and not scary for the whole family.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

Considering all of the parameters you mentioned, I would suggest an M1 30cal Carbine. Excellent size weapon and round for Home Defense, lots of bullets in the mag and serious power out to 200/250 yards, but pretty anemic at a mile or further. Price may be an issue, at an average of about $700 for newer non-military pieces.

 

[Reefinmike]

My first thought before even reading your list of ideas was a rossi 92 in 357 magnum.


Distance to her neighbors shouldnt even be a thought. The proximity of her neighbors has no bearing on what type of firearm is safe to use. The "Know your target and what is behind it" and "Only point a firearm at something you don't mind destroying" rules apply here. Send them to a firearms safety class first.

If they must take pot shots into the wild blue yonder, get a shotgun with some 00 buck or smaller.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

A 357 lever action or a 30-30. Either round would destroy a coyote. Both are a fine round for home defense and lever actions are relatively short, so that is nice for HD. If she gets a 357, she could always shoot 38 special out of it. And if another pistol is in her future, she can get a nice wheel gun in 357/38. Shared ammo is very nice when you have a limited amount of guns. My Marlin 336 (30-30) is 6+1 if I recall correctly, I believe my Marlin 1894 (357) is 9+1.
When I was younger, and didn't have the gun collection I have now, I kept a 30-30 next to my bed.

 

[Furncliff]

Lever action in .357/.38 would be my suggestion also. The ability to start out a new shooter with low noise low recoil ammo like the .38 special is really important. Buffalo Bore makes .357 mag ammo that comes within .30-30 stats for the varmints in the hen house. My Marlin 1894 is a never sell rifle. The Rossi should work for her application.

 

[hso]

Yep, a .357 lever gun or 20 gauge semi.

 

[Acera]

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog...d/719002479/CHIAPPA+FIREARMS+M1-9+CARBINE+9MM

Uses the same magazines as their pistol.

Not tactical looking.


.

 

[basicblur]

A bit outside the box, but...

I talked one of my friends into picking up an M&P 15-22 for his wife and kids to learn on, and they'll be familiar with his big AR's should the need arise.

We stuck a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot on it, and she's managed to take out all the muskrats in his 5-acre pond (now she wants to try deer)!

Maybe a little small for some varmits, but with a head shot?

His wife keeps the M&P 15-22 loaded up with a 25-rd. magazine of CCI Stingers for home defense - they live on a farm and she keeps it loaded by her bed.
Yeah, conventional wisdom says no .22 for self defense, but 25 rounds of CCI Stinger could ruin a criminal's day PDQ.

She's become quite the marksman with that simple, lightweight setup, and assuming your boss and his wife are new to shooting, a .22 is a fun plinker to learn on.

 

[Black Knight]

There is a lot of good information here but I think she should up the budget a bit. When it comes to a home defense firearm it is a good idea to pick the highest quality you can afford. The Beretta CX4 Storm carbine is a great companion arm for a Beretta pistol. They can be setup to accept the pistol's magazine. I have the CX4 and the 92F set up and they work very well together. One of the best advantages of this combo is one caliber of ammo to keep track of. I also like the idea of a lever action rifle in 357 Magnum or 30-30.

 

[Bill50]

+1 for pistol caliber carbine. Better than a rifle if they're worried about neighbors and most are fairly cheap.

 

[JTHunter]

As HSO said - "a .357 lever gun or 20 gauge semi". You might also consider a 20 gauge pump for a less expensive option. A 7/8 oz. slug from a rifled barrel on the 20 gauge will still take out a 'yote at 100 yds - if YOU have the skill.

I have a Marlin 1894 levergun, a GP100 revolver, both in .357 Magnum, and a relative has an SP101 in .38 Special. And I reload both.

The advantage of the shotty is short range with shot, longer with slugs, but not as far as a .223. Unfortunately, the shotty is also not as accurate at/beyond 100 yds. as the .223 and likely kicks a little more.

Good luck in helping your friend's choices!

 

[Nuclear]

I'd go with a gas semi auto shotgun. They fit all your friends' criteria, and I'm saying that as a fan of pistol caliber carbines. In my opinion, you don't necessarily want to kill the coyotes. See, if Bob the coyote doesn't come back one night, the rest if the pack doesn't learn anything. If Bob comes back in pain from injuries after a raid on the chickens, the pack learns that farm is to be avoided.

 

[boom boom]

IF the terrain is flat and empty around them (e.g. cropland), a shotgun would probably be better as an all round firearm. Less than lethal ammo is available and the risk to neighbors would be slight as shot shells's energy dissipates quickly. Pump actions are more versatile but gas semi-autos have less recoil. A twenty gage is more than adequate and I would recommend a recoil reducing stock such as Kick-Lite or Knoxx, as well which limits your choices to Remington or Mossbergs.

If hills and woods, surround their house from their neighbors, then rifles or the handgun caliber carbines are fine.

 

[627PCFan]

357 Levergun or other caliber for sure. Enough for 2 legged predators and 4 and enough power for both. Rossi meets their budget?

 

[Buzznrose]

Funny how folks new to firearms can be picky on stuff. I understand limitations and reality of a budget, but someone with no knowledge about ballistics should not rule out options.

To me, a semi-auto 20g shotgun is a decent option. So is a Ruger 10-22 with SR25 mags. I'm not a fan of .22LR for home defense, but 25 rounds of mini mags in a rifle aren't anything I want coming my way...

HiPoint 9MM was a good choice mentioned above. They run well and fit the budget.

Ultimately, I thing an AR is the right option. Easy to learn and shoot well. No recoil. Effective.

I like lever/bolt/pump guns too, but I'm not a fan for anything bolt/lever/pump for home defense for new shooters. Should be rack, point, press trigger, repeat, with a safety being only impediment.

Just my input. Best wishes to the new firearms owners...


Take Care,

Buzz

 

[Tirod]

Your trying to "break" her of some thought patterns and assumptions? Good luck with that.

How's it working with your spouse?

Any of the guns mentioned will be ok for home defense - but there is a problem with assuming that a gun is the best answer. In reality, it's the last ditch last resort.

Focus more on what gun she or they would prefer to shoot regularly, which will increase proficiency and familiarity. That means better shot placement, which is more important than caliber or what action at 6 ft indoor distances. If they can hit a coyote trotting along at 75m regularly that's a major accomplishment. Whatever gun gets that job done they like and are good at shooting is a win.

For Home Defense, the better suggestion is to ask about their physical security, items like motion controlled lighting or driveway alarms, which are the more popular first line defenses in rural settings. And the focus isn't on electronics either, as they can and will fail when power is out.

The public is turning to guns to a greater degree than in the past, but what I see is that too many approach them as a magic talisman that creates an aura of protection around themselves or property. That feeling of insecurity comes from some highly valid sources in modern life - but how to address them seems to prompt a lot of "Get a gun!" thinking.

If anything, what we need to be saying to friends and family is that a gun won't stop the increasing crime or potential for thuggery that we seem to think it rising. What a gun will do is limit your response with it to a much larger degree than it first appears. For the most part the advice it to avoid or deflect arguments and situations where a gun would only escalate things - while we debate the "responsibility to retreat," we do acknowledge it can have a place.

Don't promote or promise that a gun is a solution for the problems they might be seeing. In a lot of cases going for the gun is simply the worst thing to do. What we can and should be doing it preventing the issue from even coming up. Case in point, the lady is concerned about homes within a mile of her house and how far a bullet will travel. Therefore, an alternative to coyote control should be considered - trapping.

Lots of ways to skin that problem.

 

[buck460XVR]

I would suggest a Ruger 77/.357 or 77/.44. Made to mount a scope(much more so than lever carbines), quicker and easier to load and unload(Rotary Mag) than levers that are tube feed, they are quite accurate for pistol caliber carbines and are very simple to operate(Bolt action) with a easy 3 position tang safety. I say all this and I'm a lever gun guy. But for a beginner in a handgun caliber rifle, you can't go wrong with the model 77s.

 

[JTHunter]

A follow-up

The Rossi levergun is based on the Winchester 92 and BOTH are "top eject" making it difficult to mount a scope. The Winchester is also (IMHO) over-priced for what you get. Also, neither have a pad on the heel of the buttstock, just a rather sharply curved plastic or metal plate.

The Marlin 1894 is a flat-topped, side-eject that makes it easy for scopes. For 'yotes out to 100 yds. and, even more so for HD, a scope may not be advisable. Better to have an under-barrel flashlight for identifying your target.

I bought a used Marlin through GunBroker last year that, with shipping and transfer fees, cost a little over $800. This may put it out of your budget but I believe the Marlin is a better rifle than the Rossi.

 

[BigBL87]

Your trying to "break" her of some thought patterns and assumptions? Good luck with that.

How's it working with your spouse?

Any of the guns mentioned will be ok for home defense - but there is a problem with assuming that a gun is the best answer. In reality, it's the last ditch last resort.

Focus more on what gun she or they would prefer to shoot regularly, which will increase proficiency and familiarity. That means better shot placement, which is more important than caliber or what action at 6 ft indoor distances. If they can hit a coyote trotting along at 75m regularly that's a major accomplishment. Whatever gun gets that job done they like and are good at shooting is a win.

For Home Defense, the better suggestion is to ask about their physical security, items like motion controlled lighting or driveway alarms, which are the more popular first line defenses in rural settings. And the focus isn't on electronics either, as they can and will fail when power is out.

The public is turning to guns to a greater degree than in the past, but what I see is that too many approach them as a magic talisman that creates an aura of protection around themselves or property. That feeling of insecurity comes from some highly valid sources in modern life - but how to address them seems to prompt a lot of "Get a gun!" thinking.

If anything, what we need to be saying to friends and family is that a gun won't stop the increasing crime or potential for thuggery that we seem to think it rising. What a gun will do is limit your response with it to a much larger degree than it first appears. For the most part the advice it to avoid or deflect arguments and situations where a gun would only escalate things - while we debate the "responsibility to retreat," we do acknowledge it can have a place.

Don't promote or promise that a gun is a solution for the problems they might be seeing. In a lot of cases going for the gun is simply the worst thing to do. What we can and should be doing it preventing the issue from even coming up. Case in point, the lady is concerned about homes within a mile of her house and how far a bullet will travel. Therefore, an alternative to coyote control should be considered - trapping.

Lots of ways to skin that problem.

To answer your spouse question... yaaaa....

That aside, I appreciate the input on non-gun thought processes as far has home protection. We work in corrections, her as a supervisor and me as a line officer. So, avoiding compromising situations is part of our daily routine. They also do their best to secure the house in layers (motion lights, etc. like you mentioned), and also have dogs. They've just decided that they want to have an added layer of protection by owning firearms. Regarding coyote, I don't see them taking many if any shots over 50 yards or so, so I doubt optics will enter into the equation.

I'm encouraging her to be very deliberate and thoughtful in her decision making process, in part because I want to be able to educate her about ballistics, firearm safety, etc. along the way. I've also hooked them up with a nearby gun range that offers beginners shooting classes.

Part of my thought process with the lever action is, as you mention, I think she would enjoy shooting it which would encourage her to shoot more and become more proficient. Ever since I showed them to her, she has been very intrigued, saying it reminded her of the westerns she would watch when she was younger. Also, the affordability of .38 special could be huge in getting her to shoot more often. In all honesty, I forgot about lever actions in the beginning because I sadly do not own one myself.