Buzznrose
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Do you shoot from your trigger finger pad? In a Glock, that doesn’t usually get good results. Put your finger deeper into the trigger...
Help me understand why I suck with this Glock 22
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guyfromohio
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I shoot exactly how I shoot every other gun. If I have to fundamentally change my finger placement for one platform, then it’s the platform.
crestoncowboy
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Same with me. I shoot 200 yard big bore hunting handguns same as my glock 20 or 220 10mm at 100 yards...the same as I shoot my steel shooting glocks and any other semi auto. Same as rifles. Same as even the sorriest shotgun. Trigger (pw87 currently but I've had some pretty bad shotgun triggers.) Pad of my finger. I cant picture shooting with my first joint through the trigger. To each their own though
Not claiming to know everything or more than McNamara at all. And I've heard that same thing from other instructors. But my handguns be them DA revolvers, SA revolvers, or semi autos get the same pull. I do have bigger than average hands though. Maybe that matters.
JRadice45
Member
Try Jacketed bullets. I have a similar issue with my glock 23 gen 4. Shooting 165gr plated shots are usually all over the place. Factory or reloaded Jacketed bullets shoot where i intend them to go.
WrongHanded
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If it were me, I would try changing one variable at a time. Then you can more easily diagnose the problem. Come up with a plan, and go through the possibilities methodically.
I like to try a load off of bags to assess its accuracy potential before I use it, even for range practice. And if I'm having problems repeatedly, I do the same with factory ammo.
This removes as much of the human factor as possible, so if it's still shooting like junk with various types of ammo off bags, it's the gun.
I like to try a load off of bags to assess its accuracy potential before I use it, even for range practice. And if I'm having problems repeatedly, I do the same with factory ammo.
This removes as much of the human factor as possible, so if it's still shooting like junk with various types of ammo off bags, it's the gun.
JTQ
Member
I suspect it may have something to do with...
Dot Torture drill with SIG P230 https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/shot-my-first-dot-torture-drill-sig-p230.835105/
First ever CZ https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ve-a-problem-drops-to-half-cock-in-da.843361/
Is this the G22 that's been fiddled with? https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rigger-housing-in-a-gen-3-glock-right.861352/
I didn't even have to look for these, they are current threads. Pick a gun, don't swap out all the parts, and shoot that gun for a year, and see how you're doing.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Nah...
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Pretty careful with the crimp and they work in the Taurus. Thx for the thought though.
Buzznrose
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maybe, but I doubt the way you shoot a Glock is exactly how your mechanics are when shooting, say, a 1911. Different guns require some level of adjustments, regardless if you consciously acknowledge them.
Bore axis....grip angle...length of pull...grip size...grip width. Just take the Glock trigger with the safety lever...that’s pretty much a different critter from any steel DA or SA gun, surely that concept has been beat to death by the 1911/Beretta/Sig/BH/“name any all steel gun” crowd. I wear medium gloves, and I have to modify my grip from a Glock 17 to a Glock 21...different size guns.
The finger placement that what Pat Mac speaks about in his video about is the same thing I’ve heard from other, including, IIRC, Taran Butler and other competitors.
I’m not looking to ruffle any feathers, but the facts are the facts...different platforms may require some modifications/adjustments.
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guyfromohio
Member
No disagreement on my part. If I put mind to mastering the Glock, I think I could improve significantly. The platform doesn’t excite me enough to put that kind of energy into it.
Garandimal
member
Glocks - require a special grip because of their grip angle.
You need to press the palm of your strong hand down onto the back-strap, and push your thumb forward, to create a symmetrical "pocket" of support.
The first knuckles of your thumb and trigger finger should be square ("T") and perpendicular to the bore axis (slide).
Fixes Low/Left and tightens groups a lot.
GR
Looks like my groups with any Glock. It’s all me because it used to be way worse. As I improved, I have a flier early and a flier late, but most are very close and tight. Regularly I’ll have my first couple shots off 2 inches, then 10 holes in a 50 cent piece area and then the last off 2 inches. I feel Glocks are touchy and I’m not as good as I want to be yet. A THR member here, Corpral_Agarn, gave me the above advice that helped my trigger control and flinching a ton. Not sure if it applies to you in this case (not that your flinching) but the smooth trigger pull all the way back is what I needed.
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Zaydok Allen
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Given the theme of a few posts we’ve both been engaged in in the last two days, I’m going to say “Why didn’t you get a revolver?”
Seriously though, as already suggested, maybe a different bullet. Hope you sort it out. I mean you’ve been shooting Glocks a long time right? Find it hard to believe it’s you.
OF COURSE IT IS THE GUN! Glock triggers suck. (they aint the best) If it is not the gun then it would have to be YOU!
Start with the easiest possible solutions first no need to get all complicated.
Seriously though, as mentioned fix one variable at a time. The first is spend some money and buy a box of good factory ammo, heck buy another box of premium SD ammo, (Hornady, Speer Gold Dots) whatever.
Now go shoot those and record the result If you shoot better then it's you ammo, load some FMJ rather than plated Try those
If still bad, then it's the gun or you.
I had a similar problem with a SW MP 45. I tried everything It shot "patterns" Sent it back to SW twice, even had a semi pro shooter (who shot the same exact gun shoot it and it sucked) I ended up sell it. If functioned fine
Start with the easiest possible solutions first no need to get all complicated.
Seriously though, as mentioned fix one variable at a time. The first is spend some money and buy a box of good factory ammo, heck buy another box of premium SD ammo, (Hornady, Speer Gold Dots) whatever.
Now go shoot those and record the result If you shoot better then it's you ammo, load some FMJ rather than plated Try those
If still bad, then it's the gun or you.
I had a similar problem with a SW MP 45. I tried everything It shot "patterns" Sent it back to SW twice, even had a semi pro shooter (who shot the same exact gun shoot it and it sucked) I ended up sell it. If functioned fine
LiveLife
Member
We can rule out ammo because OP produced a tight group using same ammo at same distance with a different pistol shooting off hand.
OP is a match shooter proficient with shooting basics and in PM verified the front sight does not move when the striker is released.
I have been in PMs with OP for some time working on different pistol/match shooting issues and this was part of PM I sent last night.
"... once you start pulling/pressing back on the trigger, due to trigger parts overcoming inherent safeties and metal-to-metal parts engaging each other, there will be small movements you will dynamically correct/compensate to maintain the front sight steady until the striker falls. So the front sight is continuously moving while you work to steady it until the bullet exits the muzzle."
Glock utilizes partially compressed striker that continues to compress as the trigger is pressed. As the trigger is pressed further, drop safety is disengaged by the back of the trigger bar and striker pin safety is disengaged by front portion of the trigger bar and at the end of the trigger press, trigger bar drops below the striker pin to release it forward through the striker channel sleeve and striker pin slams on the back of the breech wall face as illustrated by this animation video.
During this time, various spring tensions and metal-to-metal contact/sliding will put the front sight in motion (Yes, the front sight is always in motion until the bullet exits the muzzle) and efforts to overcome/counter these motions by trigger finger, shooting/support hand/fingers - grip, forearm/shoulder/chest/back/abdominal muscles WILL ADD input to trigger/grip and move the front sight.
OP likely produced a tighter group with a different pistol using the same reloads because Taurus PT 100 is fired using single action trigger (not like modified "DAO" Glock trigger), so it requires less effort and counteractions to release the hammer/firing pin.
That's why I asked OP to shoot with eyes closed once sights were aligned on a dot at 5 yards, to see if OP was adding input to the trigger/grip to move the POI away from the POA. If POI consistently deviates from POA, then we know it's trigger/grip input as the cause. What I am hoping to find from OP shooting with eyes closed is whether POI randomly deviates from POA or whether POI groups consistently away from the POA. Depending on the range report, we'll go from there (I already PMed detailed information to synchronize POI to POA for OP to try).
Going from match 1911 with a 2.5 lb trigger job that was glass break clean and smooth and light to Glock trigger took some getting used to. Even factory Sig/RIA 1911 triggers are cleaner compared to Glock's "spongy" trigger feel that is from compressing the striker pin spring and overcoming two internal safeties while trigger bar rubs metal parts. But having said that, when I first shot a Glock 17 on a match practice stage, I got comparable double taps as my P226 I was very proficient with and got faster stage time. Yes, this was with a Glock I never shot before. Surprised, repeating the stage run produced comparable double taps with faster and faster stage times. What can I say, holes on target speak volumes and timers don't lie.
What I found with Glock triggers is that when new, until the trigger parts break in, can be firmer with hard release and jarring striker pin hit on the breech wall face causing significant jerk/jump of the front sight. If efforts to compensate move the front sight before the bullet exits the muzzle, holes can appear wildly away from POA, as experienced by OP. BUT, with many shooters, especially new shooters, I have found shooting under stress/pressure of time, Glock triggers tended to produce more consistently smaller groups when trigger was jerked quickly compared to other striker pistols. And as trigger parts break in and become smoother, can produce very consistent 4.5 lb trigger for accuracy.
These are reasons why I now recommend people dry fire before they buy any pistol while watching the front sight to ensure it does not move or buy one that minimally moves the front sight. IMO, starting out with a pistol that does not move the front sight will result in more accurate pistol as pistol parts break in. And now when I train/share with people defensive point shooting, I have them dry fire their pistols several hundred times before the first range session. This will not only help them become proficient with trigger control/grip but also makes trigger parts smoother. When I trained a coworker who never shot before with inspiration to shoot matches (He was blown away by how I could point the pen laser held in my hand consistently at various objects in the office within an inch - I told him practice), he bought a new Glock 34 and to my surprise, dry fired over 1000 times before the first range session. When I checked the front sight and trigger, it was very smooth and front sight did not move, like my Glock 22 with well broken in trigger. He then proceeded to produce 2"-3" tight groups point shooting with his eyes closed at 5 yards and eyes open point shooting at 7 yards at multiple targets (Remember, he never shot before that day).
To many not familiar, OP has been trying to address brass to face (BTF) issue with his Gen3 Glocks with factory and 40-9 conversion barrels replacing ejectors/trigger assemblies and extractors. I think some of the accuracy issues could be attributed to newness of the pistol and parts which should improve as pistol breaks in.
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Tallball
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Sometimes I take a handgun to the range a dozen times with different ammo and scrutinize my technique carefully.
Sometimes I still can't shoot it worth a darn.
When my friend at the LGS has something I want, I trade the offending firearm to him with full disclosure: "I can't shoot this one worth squat".
Some mysteries you will never solve. Lots of times it's just not worth the stress.
Sometimes I still can't shoot it worth a darn.
When my friend at the LGS has something I want, I trade the offending firearm to him with full disclosure: "I can't shoot this one worth squat".
Some mysteries you will never solve. Lots of times it's just not worth the stress.
LiveLife
Member
I agree and also PMed OP this, which I believe OP already is familiar with.
"Neutral push/pull grip - Since the goal is to hold the pistol steady while trigger is pulled/pressed to not move the front sight, we use an equal force push/pull to not move the pistol yet allow relaxing of the trigger finger.
- Clear the pistol and hold with shooting hand with "V" of palm as high as you can get on the back strap.
- Instead of "gripping" the pistol tight with your shooting hand, focus more on providing a firm push with the "V" of palm
- Next, form a hook with support hand fingers and place over the shooting hand fingers to allow as much contact of support hand palm with the pistol grip with thumbs stacked on top of each other
- Now this is important. Apply different amount of force of push with the shooting hand and use corresponding amount of equal force of pull to hold the pistol steady WHILE keeping the shooting finger relaxed. Try this with elbows bent and fully locked.
- If you want a firmer grip, try relaxing the shooting hand fingers but push firmer on the "V" of palm and squeeze tighter on the support hand fingers and pull back to match for amount of push all the while keeping your trigger finger relaxed.
- Now, while watching the front sight, dry fire. Was the front sight more steady?
- Next, cycle the slide to reset the trigger and return to neutral push/pull grip.
- Now, TRANSFER the work of push/pull to the shoulder muscles, chest muscles and back muscles. This is key as hand muscles (which are essentially actuated by forearm muscles) are smaller and will tire/fatigue easier as you shoot. By transfering the push/pull work to larger shoulder/chest/back muscles, you are able to better hold the pistol steady while you pull/press the trigger and be able to hold the pistol steady as you shoot without tiring the hand/forearm muscles.
- With shoulder/chest/back muscles doing the work of push/pull of grip, you will find relaxing the trigger finger is easier and dry fire while watching the front sight. Properly done, you should see decrease in front sight movement."
JeffG
Member
1KPerDay, shoot some factory 165's and see if there is improvement. I highly doubt it's you, and really doubting the problem theory of the gun. I ran a stable of 40 Glock, 22's,23's and 27's over 3 generations, for a small police department. I kept bowing pins on a stand at 50 yards during accuracy training. When a pistol was complained about, it was shown, any gun could hit a bowling pin at 50 yards. Usually it took a max of 2 rounds to knock it down.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Sadly this may be the case here, although to me solving the mystery is part of the fun of this hobby. Gives me something to work on.
I also can’t shoot my PX-4 storm very well but my daughter shoots it like a laser in matches with me. Guess it’s hers now
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Interesting. I wonder if some of my weirdness is I’m right handed but strongly left eye dominant. So a truly aligned grip is not possible unless I revert to a Weaver stance.
it tells you what the gun is doing during recoil. if the sights are aligning to the left after you bring the gun down, the gun is recoiling up and left. slow, fast, it doesn't matter.
murf
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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Thanks. How does this help with slow fire accuracy though? In other words, how is recoil related to accuracy?
it takes a split second for the bullet to get out of the barrel after you pull the trigger. the gun is recoiling while the bullet is traveling down the barrel. if your grip causes the recoil to go left, your shot will go left.
you can also simulate recoil by dryfiring the gun and keep squeezing the trigger after letoff. watch the sights as your squeeze gets about to ten pounds. if the sights are being pulled off by your squeeze, your bullet will also be pulled off by this "simulated" recoil.
murf
you can also simulate recoil by dryfiring the gun and keep squeezing the trigger after letoff. watch the sights as your squeeze gets about to ten pounds. if the sights are being pulled off by your squeeze, your bullet will also be pulled off by this "simulated" recoil.
murf
this is why follow-through is so important. fast or slow, a consistent follow-through at the end of every shot will retain your accuracy. random follow-through will lose accuracy.
your mind is the key to consistent follow-through. if it is on the next shot, you will not be consistent. keep your mind on the shot for a split second and make sure the bullet gets to the target. yes, this takes a lot of practice. luckily, dry practice helps a lot here.
luck,
murf
your mind is the key to consistent follow-through. if it is on the next shot, you will not be consistent. keep your mind on the shot for a split second and make sure the bullet gets to the target. yes, this takes a lot of practice. luckily, dry practice helps a lot here.
luck,
murf
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