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Help with powder measure ID

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CLP

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Sep 21, 2010
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Since I started getting into casting my own for handguns, I thought I'd revisit muzzleloaders. This is a powder measure that I cleaned up. I was 16 when I last used it many years ago. There aren't any markings on it. I found one that looks like it on Midsouth (http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...der_Measure_(For_Black_Powder_50_to_120_Grain)), but I want to be sure the volumes are the same.

Length = 2.689ish"
Interior diameter = 0.45"
Interior sleeve has 7 graduations

The Midsouth product is 50-120grains. 50 grains closed, and 10grains with each add'l graduation. As I'm writing this I'm thinking I've being overly concerned, but I don't want to make any mistakes. Can anyone with this measure confirm the volume for me? I'm dying to shoot my Hawken, even got some Goex (always shot Pyrodex as a teenager) and Lyman's BP load manual. This is the only holdup. Thanks!
 

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Why not just figure it out for yourself? It isn't rocket science. Set the slider at each mark, fill it, dump it out, and weigh the charges. Then you can use an engraving pencil to mark it for yourself.
 
Why not just figure it out for yourself? It isn't rocket science. Set the slider at each mark, fill it, dump it out, and weigh the charges. Then you can use an engraving pencil to mark it for yourself.
I didn't think they'd correspond by weight since I've always read you shouldn't measure blackpowder by weight and instead measure by volume. Even if it's ballpark I'll do that. I'm 99% sure it's 50-120grain.
 
Yep looks just like the T/C #7040 powder measuure.
When fully closed holds 50 gr powder.
Count your notches to come out to 120 gr
 
Except fpr one thing. Yoou don't weigh Black powder charges.
They are measured by volume.
Same with most synthetics.
No real doubt in my mind it is a 50 to 120 measure.
he could buy or borrow a measure and confirm that way.
 
It is my understanding that blackpowder can be weighed and that the substitutes are measured volumetrically to the volume of blackpowder associated to that weight. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
It is my understanding that blackpowder can be weighed and that the substitutes are measured volumetrically to the volume of blackpowder associated to that weight. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Not so. For shooting puposes Black Powder has always been measured by volume not by weight. Most all subtitutes are the same way.

https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

And there are numerous pages all over the internet indicating BLACK POWDER is measured by VOLUME not weight.
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Yes so..... BP is the "standard". A volume measure is supposed to drop the labeled amount of BP by weight.

There was a long thread about this some time back on this forum. The outcome is that the "volume" measurement is actually related to the weight. There is no such recognized measuring unit as a volume in grains. Instead we label our volume measures in "grains" as a convenience. We can do this because since it started being made black powder has had very nearly the same density. And since it's hard to carry a weighing scale in the woods it was normal to make up powder measures that held so many grains of BP and to label them that way.

So yeah, if CLP has some genuine BP he can confirm that the volume charges by measuring out and weighing the amount of BP that it holds for each mark.

The importance of using a volume measure for metering out powder only arises if we are using one of the substitutes. The density of the subs isn't the same as BP. But the pressure and power is matched provided we use the same VOLUME as we would for BP.

And yes, it was a bit of a confusing thread...... :D But the big point is that for REAL BP volume is supposed to equal weight.

Hey, CLP, that really does look like my TC 50-120. I'm betting it is the same. If you've got some real BP measure out and weigh a few charges.
 
Oh jeez, I knew this was going to come up as soon as I mentioned weighing the powder charges the measure throws.

Volume or weight, IT DOES NOT MATTER!

Most of these type of powder measure have a slide on them, and they usually have some numbers inscribed on them. Like this:

closeupofgraduatedmeasure-1.jpg

So what do you think those numbers mean? Grains Volume? A mythical unit of measure that does not exist in any scientific tables?

Here's how it works. You set the slide to some number. This one happens to be set to 30 grains. Back when these things were being manufactured, the prototype was set up and the number was inscribed at the spot where a charge of KNOWN WEIGHT would be measured out by volume. Then the manufacturer went to town and produced a bazillion of them. If you are using real Black Powder, and set the slide to 30, and then weigh the resultant charge, it will weigh very close 30 grains. Will it be exactly 30 grains? Probably not, because not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. I keep a chart in my loading notebook of the actual weights of known charges of different brands of powder, and they do not weigh the same. In addition to that, the weight of a known volume of powder will vary by the granulation, because finer grains pack more densely than coarser grains.

But in the grand scheme of things, IT DOES NOT MATTER. Set the powder measure to one of the scribed lines and fill the measure to that level. Then pour it out and weight it. I double dog guarantee you the weight will be somewhere close to a convenient number, like 10 grains or 20 or 50. No, it probably will not be dead nuts on that number, it may even vary by a few grains. IT DOES NOT MATTER! This is not Smokeless loading where an overcharge of 1 grain of Whiz Bang may blow up the gun. Give or take a few grains of Black Powder simply does not matter unless you are shooting BPCR and are trying to consistently hit a small target at 500 yards. And guess what. Most of the guys who shoot BPCR actually weigh their charges, they do not rely on a volume measure.

This whole stupid grains/volume thing started when Pyrodex first came out. It weighs substantially less than real Black Powder, but it was formulated to have the same energy as a similar volume of Black Powder. So when using Pyrodex, one needed to measure it out by volume so the charge would be similar to a known charge of real Black Powder.

Set the powder measure on one of the scribed lines. Fill it with powder. Dump it out and weigh it. Do it several times so you can average the result, because it will not be the same every time. Then fudge the number to the nearest whole number and scribe it on the measure.

Repeat for each scribed line.

P.S. I go through close to 20 pounds of Black Powder every year in CAS. I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 with Black Powder. Yes, I use a powder measure that portions out the powder by volume, exactly as it was done back in 1873. No, I do not take the time to weigh each charge. But I do keep a notebook of what the charges are. Guess what unit I use? Cubic Centimeters. A scientifically accepted unit of voulume. (Sorry, I have not converted to milliliters yet.) And in my notebook I keep track of how much each CC measurement of each brand and granulation of powder actually weighs. Guess what else? Even with the same brand and granulation of powder, it varies over time. This is not Smokeless powder where great effort is made to keep the chemistry exactly the same year to year and lot to lot. It is Black Powder, and the actual weight by volume varies over time. That's why the BPCR guys will requalify their loads when they buy a new lot of powder. Does it matter for relatively informal shooting? Not at all. Even if a slide type powder measure is throwing 52.25 grains when the slide is set for 50, IT DOES NOT MATTER. Set the measure the same every time and you will get all the consistency you need for accurate shooting.
 
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volume vs weight

I have to go back and rethink how I was going to try to explain this.
Maybe tomorrow when more awake.
 
Yep, that's a TC 50-120gr measure, the same one I have in my possibles right now. I probably own 6 of them.

Insofar as weight vs. volume, this (or any other quality volumetric BP measure) will throw 50-ish grains of powder by weight when set to the 50 gr. setting. Maybe 48, maybe 51...... 50-ish. Your rifle will not care, and you shouldn't lose any sleep over it. Practice consistent use of the measure so you can usually throw a consistent charge; your rifle DOES care about that. My personal process is to fill the measure to slightly heaping, tap the measure with the flask spout, lightly, three times, then make up any shortage of powder until the measure is dead level full. Dump the powder in the barrel, thump barrel 6 times to settle the powder, then add a projectile. This is actually WAY less involved than what the benchrest guys do.
 
Black powder guns are primitive weapons using primitive propellant. Don't overthink!!

and Driftwood, I admire your restraint.
 
When shooting i slightly overfill the measure and then strike it off level with my finger, no tapping, no nothing. My blackpowder mentor in the early 1960s taught me that. Despite being 80+ years old he won nearly all the muzzleloader shooting contests he attended.

Here is a spiffy volume to weight chart for blackpowder and blackpowder substitutes. i have personally weighed the 100 grain volume for all the current blackpowder substitutes except Blackhorn 209: The chart checks out.


http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
 
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