Herman Cain on gun control and the 2a. Anyone know?

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Well, I'll rephrase my earlier post. From what I have read Cain would be much better for us on his stance on the Second Amendment. Too often we are fooled by guys like Romney, who is a north eastern republican and their version of conservative or supporting the 2nd amendment is often worse than what you would find in southern Democrats. We have to be careful of what the candidates record is and not just listen to what they say now they are trying to get our vote. Cain's answers to a questionnaire are much less important to me than what he has done in the past.
 
answers to a questionnaire are much less important to me than what he has done in the past.

I completely agree. The challenge is that Mr. Cain doesn't have a political record to examine. Does anyone know what the firearms policy was for Godfather's Pizza? If the company had a no firearms policy it would be a strong indication of what the man who ran it thinks about that point.
 
I wrote to Cain about this....

Thanks, basicblur, for posting the GOA article from Sept. 30th.

Good idea, hso, to check his company's gun policy. But often, even very pro-gun owners feel they have to post restrictions on possession/carry on business premises for insurance reasons or to placate employees who would be disturbed to know that their fellow employees may be carrying. Also, it may be difficult to get these internal documents out of Godfather's Pizza. I know these things because I am a business owner and have worked for one who was pro-gun but had no-gun-on-premises policy.

It also may be that Herman Cain is pro-Constitution but never "got into" the pro-RKBA issue in any depth. I know I was that way for my whole life until it was clear that Obama was going to win the Presidency. In fact, it was only after that that I looked for a joined THR. This in spite of the fact that I have been a gun owner and shooter all of my teenage and adult life (decades). Cain may be in the same boat.

I think Herman Cain does not realize how big a deal 2A stuff is in the political sphere. After all, he is not a professional politician. So I wrote his campaign to let him know. Here is the content of my letter to the Cain campaign office:
SUBJECT: Your position on 2nd Amendment?
DATE: 11 Oct. 2011

Dear Mr. Cain and Staff,

I am a supporter and have donated money to your campaign. I continue to wish you the best of success in winning the nomination!

Regarding gun rights, the 2nd Amendment and your positions on them, please clarify publicly as soon as possible. I know it seems like a second-tier issue, but there are millions of "gun voters" out here who can't give you full support until this is cleared up.

An article on 30 Sept. 2011 by the Gun Owners of America gives a summary of the open questions you need to answer:
http://gunowners.org/a09302011.htm

For convenience, here are three of the main questions:

∙ Is he aware that the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment wanted to impose the Bill of Rights -- and specifically the Second Amendment -- upon the states?

∙ What does he think about the Supreme Court’s decision in McDonald v. Chicago? Does he agree that states and localities -- subsequent to the Fourteenth Amendment -- are constitutionally barred from banning guns?

∙ And what about concealed carry outside of one’s home state? As President, would Herman Cain sign or veto a bill like H.R. 2900, which provides for concealed carry recognition amongst the states?
(For the context, see the full articel at the link above.)

Look, we know you'll be better than Obama on 2nd, 10th and 14th Amendment rights. You probably think that you don't need to address this issue because anybody who is worried about this issue will vote for you over Obama in a heartbeat. That is true, but you do need address this issue. YOU ARE WRONG TO IGNORE THIS ISSUE. As a non-career-politician, you might miss this: SETTING A FIRM PRO-2ND AMENDMENT POSITION WILL HELP YOU WIN THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION. You will be amazed at how powerful this issue is and how freeing it will be to millions of voters to get behind you. It will truly help you build primary campaign momentum. Right now, many voters are held back because of your unclear position.

With best regards and best wishes, Bill_Rights (real name given to Cain)
 
I completely agree. The challenge is that Mr. Cain doesn't have a political record to examine. Does anyone know what the firearms policy was for Godfather's Pizza? If the company had a no firearms policy it would be a strong indication of what the man who ran it thinks about that point.
__________________

True, but I should have phrased that to include all the candidates. The front runner may take a pro-second amendment stance now or on the questionnaire even though he has made statements in the past that seem to say the opposite.
 
True, but I should have phrased that to include all the candidates. The front runner may take a pro-second amendment stance now or on the questionnaire even though he has made statements in the past that seem to say the opposite.
Good point, Jon, about including all candidates. But I believe in "death-bed conversions". We are near to death as a constitutional republic with civil order as founded. To the extent that a candidate believes the urgency and seriousness of the situation, then I believe their death-bed conversion. What they may have said or voted on in the casual past can be discounted.

But is any one of these candidates as serious as we are?
 
The Federal 2A and state level RKBA are two different things!

The only reason there is blur is because the Federal government is using a bad SCOTUS ruling that perverts the commerce clause beyond original intent to violate the Second Amendment AND reach into the states.

REMEMBER, THE STATES ARE SOVEREIGN! (Though they don't act like it). Most have RKBA in their constitutions (and violate them anyway).
 
The states are not sovereign. There is far too much misinformation on the Constitution put forth by those who wish the document to be something it is not.

The states were sovereign under the Articles of Confederation, but under the Constitution the United States was created by the people. The preamble says "We the people..."

The Constitution is clear that states are not sovereign and the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. The U.S. is a mix of national and federal construction, separation and balance of power. The states certainly do have rights the national/federal government does not and vice versa, but the notion that states are sovereign entities is incorrect. They gave up that sovereignty by ratifying the Constitution.
 
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I don't trust this man. Not one bit. He lied and flip flopped on the Fed so I think he could flip flop on gun control too. Just like Mittens did.
 
Typical approach for a politician (and despite what Cain says he IS a politician) would be to appear very gun friendly during the primaries where there is a larger concentration of pro 2A folks, and then after obtaining the nomination tone it down quite a bit to appeal to the wider electorate. Once in power it's a complete crap shoot on how any politician will turn out. Most likely any President-elect will quickly forget campaign platforms and adjust his/her views and policies towards what ever grants the his branch greater power. Undermining the Constitution is always good for Presidential powers.
 
Much more important that which republican to vote in is to not only regain control of the Senate but hopefully to replace a lot of the RINO republicans with true conservatives. Regardless of what Cain's stance may be if no anti-gun legislation can get through Congress his personal views are moot. If a popular pro-gun measure is put on his desk I'm sure any of these guys would sign it rather than take an ant-gun stance that would keep him from getting re-elected.
 
Jon,
You are, of course, correct. But I guess the Senate would be another thread; it is OT here.

Stumpers,
You are correct. The net result of our system of laws is a three-way between the people, the states and the federal gov't. But doesn't the 10th Amendment clarify this:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people.
On second thought, that is about as clear as mud. But, I trust that it IS clear. I just haven't analyzed it and understood it properly....

And this too is OT.....
 
alsaqr,

Citing another website that doesn't attribute an opinion to a valid source isn't a reliable source in and of itself. If an employee of Godfather's can get a copy of the employee handbook and provide it, the section on carry would be a reliable source. Everything else is just hearsay.
 
Stay mellow folks, the jury is still out on his exact stance. Likely he's just busy with other issues.

Some reporter just needs to ask him to clarify his 2nd amendment stance. Not sure who it will be but somebody will. Is he still hosting his radio talk show?

To quote the wikipedia entry for Herman Cain
"Before his business career he worked as a mathematician in ballistics as a civilian employee of the United States Navy" At least as a mathematician and businessman he likely has a logical mindset. He's from Georgia and lives there now in Atlanta.

It's possible he's on the fence and someone sensible needs to educate him on how bad it is in anti-gun areas like California, New Jersey, etc.. and that firearms help people be safe more often than not.

Tom Selleck is pretty good at explaining the reality of firearms. Also Condoleezza Rice is Pro-gun rights and a southerner as well (from Alabama).
 
I emailed Mr. Cain suggesting he either repond to my email or update the issues section of his web site to include gun control and his positions. I told him that there were many questions about his positions on the gun forums. If by chance he or a staffer respond, I will post.
 
Anybody know a Cain-friendly reporter in Atlanta?

22-rimfire: I too am still waiting for a response to an E-mail I wrote to the Cain campaign on gun rights. Will post gist of it when/if I get it.

Hugo: Excellent point:
Some reporter just needs to ask him to clarify his 2nd amendment stance. Not sure who it will be but somebody will.
I have an idea! Instead of asking Cain or his campaign, let's ask a reporter to ask Cain. Does anyone know of a reporter that is friendly with Cain and could get to him? Maybe you/we could pre-load the reporter with the questions and nuances of the issue we have been discussing here. Then the reporter could take a few concentrated minutes and sympathetically take Cain through the issues slowly and carefully.

I agree with
Likely he's just busy with other issues.
It's possible he's on the fence and someone sensible needs to educate him on how bad it is in anti-gun areas like California, New Jersey, etc.. and that firearms help people be safe more often than not.
 
Other ways to contact Cain campaign

To follow up about ways to get our RKBA/2A questions answered by Cain or his campaign, this web site gives a list of all of Cain's national and state-specific campaign staff:
http://www.p2012.org/candidates/cainorg.html
His campaign manager is Mark Bloch.

Anybody know how to contact any of these folks? The web site given does not give E-mail addresses or phone #s.
Main snail mail headquarters address is:

Friends of Herman Cain, Inc.
P.O. Box 2158
Stockbridge, Georgia 30281

Some addresses of state headquarters are given, too.
 
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Bambi,

Yeh, I know Cain conveyed that in the video. IIRC, somebody else pointed that out above. But I am with Hugo: stay mellow; this video is not to be taken as a considered, final position.

Also, stumpers has it exactly right. The states are not supposed to have the right to contradict the federal Constitution. I found what I tried to cite earlier and botched. It is:
The Constitution of the United States

Article. VI.

All Debts contracted ...blah blah blah ... the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
(Technically, I guess it does not say state legislators cannot pass laws contradictory to the U.S. Constitution, but judges in those states may not enforce contradictory laws.)

HSO, I think the web source of this snip of the Constitution is valid:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
 
It surprises me how many conservatives see the Heller decision as a blow to State's Rights. Somehow they believe states have the right to throw the 2nd amendment out of the window if they choose. They believe the 2nd amendment doesn't limit state and local authority to do what they want with gun laws but somehow the 1st, 3rd, 4th, etc.....do limit what they can do with those rights. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.
 
Cain's stance on the Second Amendment is a talking point - and a self-contradictory one at that.

See http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/06/10/242793/anti-gun-herman-cain/
Watch the video. In his own words. He essentially says, "I support the Second Amendment - and I think the states should be able to override the Second Amendment."

And don't miss this video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiNpxLe&feature=player_embedded :)
When you view that video, you have to remember the context. Herman Cain has to appeal to the base that will get him the nomination in the primaries, but also not make it impossible for him to move toward a position that can win the nation. It's harder to tell a candidate's final position because the composition of the primaries are so out of touch with the rest of the nation in the general election.
 
When you view that video, you have to remember the context. Herman Cain has to appeal to the base that will get him the nomination in the primaries, but also not make it impossible for him to move toward a position that can win the nation. It's harder to tell a candidate's final position because the composition of the primaries are so out of touch with the rest of the nation in the general election.

I always figured that a politician who will lie to you during the campaign is just plain dishonest and should be removed from consideration as soon as possible. If they lie to you when they need your vote, what stops them from doing much worse once they DON'T need your vote?

Innate dishonesty is one of the most prevalent and important disqualifiers for virtually any job. POTUS, cop, salesman, dog catcher, teacher... if they lie, they should be fired. If you catch them lying before they're hired... they shouldn't get the job.

WRT the Second Amendment, Cain is ignorant of the Constitution, is an idiot, or is a liar. Maybe all three. (IMO, PROBABLY all three.)

For those who don't understand the operation of the Bill of Rights, they were a condition precedent to the enactment of the Constitution. The anti-federalists (Jefferson, et al) refused to sign without a BoR. As ratified, all the states agreed that they were part of the Supreme Law of the Land. The Supremes have gone through a sort of legal square dance over the issue of "incorporation" of the rights spelled out in the BoR (never said the Supremes were all that bright - and often their stupidity is overwhelming... see Wickard v. Filburn on the Commerce Clause) but they finally figured out that the Second Amendment applies to the States in the Heller decision.

Sort of.

That said, under any theory of law, the Second Amendment is the Supreme Law of the Land. So in an honest Supreme Court, that would be the end of the story in every Federal, State, County and Municipal jurisdiction within the USA. But the Supreme Court isn't completely honest, so the legal masturbation will go on for decades as the "boobs in Black" come up with different ways to carve out exceptions, and appear to do the right thing, while doing the political thing.

An example of what I mean: In Heller, there is an exception to the "right to bear arms" that applies to "dangerous and unusual" arms. The thrust of the opinion is that machine guns fall into this category because they're both "dangerous" and "unusual".

Of course, a firearm that isn't "dangerous" is pretty useless as a firearm. (Might still be fine for a mantle piece.) Even BB guns are "dangerous". Surely handguns, shotguns and rifles are "dangerous". So "dangerous" is just a term the BiB threw out as a gratuitous qualifier intended to help build the case for the second part of the exception: "Unusual". Like an AK-47 or an M-16.

Except, the reason that these full-auto firearms are "unusual" is because of the NFa 1934 and the GCA 1968, which effectively banned ownership of any new machine guns. Get it? The exception eats its own tail. If not for the unconstitutional taxes/prohibition in the NFA/GCA, machine guns would likely be as plentiful as AR-15s and AKS are today. But the GCA made them "unusual" and so subject to special limitations.

Of course, there's nothing in the Second Amendment that says, "... the right of the People to keep and bear arms, so long as they aren't dangerous and unusual, shall not be infringed" - but that's the way the Boob-in-Black created that particular canard, that judicial LIE.

Now suppose the ruling had been on the constitutionality of the 14th or 19th Amendments. The BiB version might have read, "No one shall be compelled to be a slave... unless they're already a slave, in which case, this doesn't apply", or "All women may now vote - unless they've never voted before, in which case they may not vote now."

Except in the case of Heller, the key word is "unusual", as applied to firearms that are only "unusual" because the government made them "unusual".
 
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I still haven't gotten a reply from the Cain campaign and I still don't see a clear 2A statement in his website.
 
I don't know exactly where Herman Cain is on gun rights. At least he hasn't come out against the second amendment or RKBA either. It takes more than a president to infringe on constitutional rights so the cabinet and advisors a president assembles will tell the tale.
 
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