High end pistol with analog bullet counter?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Matt Yee

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
5
Hey all, first time poster here, college machinist, and hopefully future entrepreneur. I have been tinkering in CAD and sketching out schematics for a new pistol idea I had and was curious as to if there is a market. I am an avid vintage watch enthusiast and was inspired by the swiss craftsman who make the fine precision timepieces at brands like Breitling, Vacheron Constantin, and Patek Philippe, to make a similarly precise, and well finished luxury firearm. Recently I was struck with an Idea for a unique pistol with a bullet-counter in the grip. The wooden grips would be milled out for a small dial which would display the amount of rounds left in the magazine. There would be a sliding bar in the grip which would move based on the position of the magazine follower in the grip (the follower would protrude from the side of the magazine as they do on a luger mag). This sliding bar would have gear teeth along it's horizontal surface which would turn a series of gears leading up to the hands on the dial. The gun would of course be finished to high standards and the slide to frame fit and slide to barrel fit would be held to sub .001 tolerances. Is there a market for this? I know the gun community tends to shy away from complication and guns with little utilitarian value, so I'm a bit iffy about diving headfirst into the industry and getting the licenses, insurance, and more insurance, etc. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
 
If regulation is the constraint, make a few airsoft guns first. Even better, start with making unregulated AR parts, essentially anything but the lower receiver. Neither is necessarily a good business, but you'd learn enough to know whether you want in or not.

The luxury firearm market absolutely puts a strong demand on machinist skills. The most popular genre that comes to mind is the 1911 pistols. Take a look at the machine work on a Les Baer or Ed Brown. Look at the Korth revolvers. But like a Patek Philippe, the market for that is very limited and there is fierce competition.

Making something like AR parts or Glock barrels gets you into a much larger market, but it might be hard to get more than 0.001% share.

Going into the market with a novel, complete handgun would involve a lot of risk. Why not prove your concepts as accessories to existing guns first? For example, create a magazine and grips for the 1911 with the features you described. Here's one with clear panels on the magazine and grips:

563500_01_custom_clear_lucite_1911_grips_640.jpg
 
My thoughts are if you are looking at features that are market desirable the round count system is just not that big of a deal.
If I were you I would be looking at something like a gear driven revolver with miniature bearings . The purpose of precision timing and flawless smooth trigger operation is desirable and marketable. In semi auto pistols the smooth function of a roller bearing slide and smooth precision trigger would separate the normal from the exceptional. Think bearings and gears applied to desirable handgun function. Performance sells better than complicated gadgets.
 
How many devices built in the last few decades have mechanical counters?

I want to say zero but I know as soon as I do, someone will find one. So I’ll say that the number is extremely low. If you decide to do this, please use electronics, first they’re cheaper, and second probably much more reliable. They’re also smaller, and allow you to do so much more.

If I’m not mistaken, all you really need is a reed switch of some sort to count the bullets ‘clicking’ past. From there you write to some storage then come up with a way to send the data to a smart phone, tablet or computer. The most logical off the cuff is blue tooth.

From there it’s more of a programming exercise than a machining one. So that may be less interesting to you.

I know I’d love to have something like this. The problem is I’m not willing to pay much more for it. Sure knowing how many rounds a gun has through it is nice but to me it’s not worth $25 or more added to the cost. And I suspect I’m not alone. So your market is going to be limited not only but the constraints others mentioned but also by cost and interest.
 
It's a very cool idea, but I would also shy away from any precision mechanical watch-like design. It's just going to mean a lot of unnecessary engineering, machining and cost. I would imagine.

In my mind, I'm thinking of Halo, Dead Space, and probably a bunch of others. An electronic display w/ say, compass and round count.

Come to think of it, I don't think anything like this really exists on the market, does it? Could it be as simple as measuring recoil impulse with a motion detector, and simply resetting the counter when replacing mag..? Maybe a bit more complicated, but some kind of sensor with NFC connecting mag to gun, and maybe a laser sensor to see how many rounds are currently in the mag?

I dunno how it would be done, but I'd pay money for it. I think some guy did this for a nerf gun. That's pretty sick.

halo-5-gets-gameplay-videos-screenshots-missing-split-screen-explanation-492500-11.jpg
 
No sustainable market.
Cost & complexity would kill it.
This was my thought also and I don't see a practical use.

If I'm shooting on the range and need to take a pause, and then resume shooting, and I'm curious how many rounds I have left, I'm just going to drop the magazine quick and look at the witness hole, or peep hole, or whatever you would call them. Those holes also serve to allow debris to drop out of the magazine without having to tear them apart. On that note, I take my magazines apart on a semi regular basis to clean them. I wouldn't want to mess with another unnecessary part or mechanism. Especially in a defense gun. Over complicating the most common failure point on an autoloader is a bad idea in my opinion.

If I'm actually using my gun for defense, I'm not going to stop and check my remaining ammo on this gauge to see if I should reload. I'm going to shoot until the threat is stopped as quickly and accurately as I can. If in a situation where I think there is a remaining threat after I've shot and I have a spare magazine, I'm going to reload during that pause anyway to ensure I have as many rounds on tap as possible. At that point the partially spent magazine becomes my spare.

It's a neat idea but from where I'm standing would serve no purpose, and is something I would actively avoid in a defensive gun for it's unnecessary complexity.
 
This was my thought also and I don't see a practical use.

If I'm shooting on the range and need to take a pause, and then resume shooting, and I'm curious how many rounds I have left, I'm just going to drop the magazine quick and look at the witness hole, or peep hole, or whatever you would call them. Those holes also serve to allow debris to drop out of the magazine without having to tear them apart. On that note, I take my magazines apart on a semi regular basis to clean them. I wouldn't want to mess with another unnecessary part or mechanism. Especially in a defense gun. Over complicating the most common failure point on an autoloader is a bad idea in my opinion.

If I'm actually using my gun for defense, I'm not going to stop and check my remaining ammo on this gauge to see if I should reload. I'm going to shoot until the threat is stopped as quickly and accurately as I can. If in a situation where I think there is a remaining threat after I've shot and I have a spare magazine, I'm going to reload during that pause anyway to ensure I have as many rounds on tap as possible. At that point the partially spent magazine becomes my spare.

It's a neat idea but from where I'm standing would serve no purpose, and is something I would actively avoid in a defensive gun for it's unnecessary complexity.
IMO, the market would, as the OP states, be the bespoke/high end collector- the Korth crowd perhaps. Highly unlikely these would be used in a CCW/SD role, so the complexity vs reliability aspect wouldn't necessarily be a detriment to sales.

Either a digital or mechanical counter would be neat, but as others have said the clear grip panels pretty much have that covered on handguns. I think a digital counter assault rifle (Ala Aliens or Halo) would sell like hotcakes. I also really liked the clockwork counter on the Savage M99 rotary guns....:)
 
You don't need a license to build guns for yourself, only if you build them with the intention of reselling. Build a couple of guns with the counter and see how it works. I'd recommend starting off with something pretty standard like a 1911 so that the ammo counter is the only real unknown. Once you have that part of the design sorted, then you can start with designing/making the rest of the gun.

Now on to the business stuff. I think your market is going to be incredibly small - especially as a brand new company. Anyone who is looking for reliability will take one look at the watch-like parts and pass on the gun. Your market will be with people who buy guns and hold them, not shooters. I assume for a "luxury" gun, you're going to be looking at a price around $5,000? Not many people will want to drop that kinda cash on a completely unknown manufacturer.

The usefulness of a round counter is also a bit suspect. Several versions have been developed in the past (most I've seen rely on recoil impulse) and none have really caught on. It's just too easy to drop a pistol mag and look at the witness holes, or if you're using a rifle you can just buy a mag with translucent panels and see the rounds you have left. And as others have mentioned, in a defensive setting if you have any doubt as to how many rounds are left in the mag, you're going to swap the mag anyway.

Also on a pistol, if the shooter is using a proper 2 handed grip it is very likely that pressure will be applied to the face of your dial counter. Depending on the design that might adversely affect the reliability of the mag and gun. It also means the shooter has to break from their shooting grip to read the dial.

Anyway, it's worth giving it a shot if you really like the idea - even if it's just to satisfy your curiosity of "can I actually design and make this". But I don't think it'll be profitable if you do it as a business.
 
I appreciate the feedback. I understand that additional complication is something the gun community would be shy of, and that a bullet counter is not the most practical complication. However, the reason for the bullet counter complication is not function, so much as another way to showcase precision and attention to detail, as well as a sort of "claim to fame" so to speak. Or a feature that gives us brand identity. This is why I would not use an electronic round counter. It is supposed to be complicated simply for the sake of complication.
 
I appreciate the feedback. I understand that additional complication is something the gun community would be shy of...

I think that is the biggest obstacle. There is an ingrained prejudice floating around out there in the gun community against excess complexity. I have heard complaints on that score against the firing pin safety that appeared in the Series 80 Colt 1911, and against the key lock in current Smith and Wesson revolvers. It is a leading objection to the "smart gun" concept.

At the least, if you go forward with the mechanical cartridge counter, make sure that its failure modes are benign ones: failure of the cartridge counter will not disable the gun. Publicize the fact to potential customers.
 
I understand the "complication for complication's sake." That is indeed totally contrary to the mainstream gun market, but not a non-existent market. The gas-operated Desert Eagle is a little like that. You could add a lot more complication to something like that and it probably wouldn't shrink the market size for it any unless it also drove the cost up or made reliability very pitiful. Nobody buys a Patek Phillipe for its accuracy, but they're not selling them outright broken. Still, it would be more art than business and the prospects for profits would be about the same as for any artist.
 
If your goal is "Complexity For The Sake Of Complexity", you're dead in the water right there.
This would not give you a brand identity, beyond a fleeting memory of "That company that tried the goofy mag counter thing".

Seriously- you'd be doing expensive R&D plus advertising on a dead-end product.

Regardless of the fact that YOU are only interested in complex for the sake of complex, and your goal is not to create or provide anything actually useful to the market you'd try to sell to, you have to look at the other side of the equation.

Defensive shooters wouldn't have much use, and recreational shooters wouldn't spend the money for a mechanical dial system when they'd be just shooting the thing dry anyway, or they'd have the time to simply pull the mag and look.

And the idea that it'd appeal to high-enders looking for something cool to add to a sit-in-the-vault collection first- still wouldn't sell in volume, and second- would neither get your name bandied about much nor produce enough revenue to make it worthwhile.

I don't think you correctly understand any of the potential market segments you'd be looking at, in terms of how they use their guns, and what they'll buy for them.

Your projected business model, as you clarified it, is simply skewed.
You don't make a name for yourself by trying to force a product with no practical utility on a market that has no interest in it.

It IS frequently possible to create demand for a certain product, but for success there it'd pretty much have to be either a fad situation with no sustainability (and little brand-establishment value), or something that truly and forcefully meets a need nobody else is serving.

I don't see your proposal fitting into either category.
Denis
 
I agree with telekinesis when he said to make one for yourself just to see if you can. I always wanted to build a 4x4 go cart for the same reason. Basically put machined models of u joints and differentials to use:)
Still want to build my own rifle.. drilling/rifling my own barrel is the biggest hang up. Lol.
 
If your goal is "Complexity For The Sake Of Complexity", you're dead in the water right there.
This would not give you a brand identity, beyond a fleeting memory of "That company that tried the goofy mag counter thing".

Seriously- you'd be doing expensive R&D plus advertising on a dead-end product.

Regardless of the fact that YOU are only interested in complex for the sake of complex, and your goal is not to create or provide anything actually useful to the market you'd try to sell to, you have to look at the other side of the equation.

Defensive shooters wouldn't have much use, and recreational shooters wouldn't spend the money for a mechanical dial system when they'd be just shooting the thing dry anyway, or they'd have the time to simply pull the mag and look.

And the idea that it'd appeal to high-enders looking for something cool to add to a sit-in-the-vault collection first- still wouldn't sell in volume, and second- would neither get your name bandied about much nor produce enough revenue to make it worthwhile.

I don't think you correctly understand any of the potential market segments you'd be looking at, in terms of how they use their guns, and what they'll buy for them.

Your projected business model, as you clarified it, is simply skewed.
You don't make a name for yourself by trying to force a product with no practical utility on a market that has no interest in it.

It IS frequently possible to create demand for a certain product, but for success there it'd pretty much have to be either a fad situation with no sustainability (and little brand-establishment value), or something that truly and forcefully meets a need nobody else is serving.

I don't see your proposal fitting into either category.
Denis
I think you have a point. I need to adequately target a specific audience. If I were to bring this bullet counter to the market it would have to be in limited numbers and after a brand is actually established.
 
You should consider the existing market of "fine firearms". Then consider whether you have interest in approaching this market with your talents. The finest of the fine are not analogous to turn of the century modern marvel doo-dad's, nor that of the post-war consumerism revolution. They're works of art, wrapped around elegantly simple mechanisms. They're not watchmaker's novel contraptions with superfluous design.

As a product development engineer myself, I can understand the interest or even passion to develop modifications, but not all modifications are advancements.
 
I can see this, even given the limitations. After all, Savage had a round counter in (in my humble opinion) the greatest lever-action rifle ever made, the Model 99. Perhaps something inspired by the Broomhandle Mauser would be a worthy vehicle for the OPs design?
 
Firearms people tend to fall into two camps. Tradition/history/nostalgia, and utilitarian/practical. Individual gunowners often have crossover in both realms. What you describe would certainly be interesting to some people, but I don't think they would be lining up to buy one. Especially for what they would probably cost.
 
There are a LOT of steampunker's out there - you MIGHT have a very, very, very niche market with those very few steampunkers which aren't anti-2A. Their entire paradigm is based on mechanical complexity for the sake of mechanical complexity. Be sure to design in superfluous brass, rivets, and gearing.
 
I will admit I did enjoy seeing some of the steampunk AR-15s out there in the past.
 
What is being considered will amount to strapping a Phillipe Patek to the frame of a gun - then throwing it down a flight of stairs, only to chain it behind a pickup truck and dragged down a dirt road.

That is the performance standard for the market for a round counting firearm. It's somewhat an exaggeration, but the military does have it in mind. Electronics will answer, it's already being prototyped using existing automotive components. A "knock sensor" will record the actual firing of the firearm, it amounts to a solid state microphone which registers a counter click when the gun goes off. Not just hand cycling rounds thru the action, which would distort the actual round count. From there an small chip can accumulate the number, and be read by a RFID scanner. Compact and solid state.

While some guns cater to the high end market please note most of the big sellers are in the same genre as G Shock watches - which have sold over 100 million in the last three decades. That is a major segment of timekeeping and it's contested by quite a few competitors like Timex, Armitron, Seiko, Citizen, Suunto, and dozens of Chinese brands who actually make the original parts.

That's where the market is.

Put the round counter inside the mag release button and you will own the patents for a little while. That will be the long term solution.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top