Home Defense advice on My Little Shotgun

[41magsnub]

I have a Winchester Model 12 20 gauge youth model. It has the standard youth short stock and the barrel is cut down to the shortest legal length. Not sure what it is exactly but it is very short. When I was 12 (many years ago) my dad bought it for me to start pheasant hunting. I still use it today for upland game since it is only a little too short for me so I can shoot it just fine and the 3" mag 20 gauge shells still knock down a pheasant with authority. Plus.. I get to carry around a light little gun.

On the barrel is a removable choke system and I have the chokes for full, improved, and modified. Slick system, the magazine plug is a threaded tube that holds the 2 chokes not in use and the tool is held on the inside of it.

Since the gun is so short I think it would make a great home defense shotgun. I don't really want to invest in any sort of different barrel.

Sorry for the novel... the real question. What loads should I be looking for to keep around for home defense purposes and which choke should I have in the gun to compliment them?

 

[sm]

Pattern Board is going to reveal the best load and choke to use.

2 3/4 inch loads are all you need, and all I ever use.

I would start with 5 packs of #3 Buckshot from Rem, Fed and Win and the Improved Cylinder Choke, shooting to replicate the longest distance in your home, plus a couple of extra yards.

My gut guess is, Modified Choke with Remington #3 buck is going to pattern best.
This load seems to have improved, shot seems "harder" and the buffering compound has always been great.

HTH

Steve

 

[Striker]

Sounds like you are ready to go with the shotgun as is except for removing the plug.

I personally prefer 00 buck. I recommend you get a couple of boxes from different manufacturers and pattern each with your IC and Mod chokes to see which load patterns best at the longest distance you'll need inside the house.


Edit: An obvious cross-posting with sm, he was faster then me!

 

[Dave McCracken]

20 gauge buck is limited to 3 buck and rare loads of 2s. As sm said, I;d buy a few kinds and see what your shotgun likes.

And, it sounds like a fine choice for HD.

20 gauge is adequate and ammo is common.

The Model 12 is well known for its reliability and speed of operation in trained hands.

And you KNOW the weapon. That counts for a lot.....

 

[41magsnub]

Thanks guys, I cleaned out the local sporting goods store of 20 ga buck shot. Of course.. "cleaning out" consisted of 2 boxes of federal 3" mag 3 buckshot and 1 box of remington 3" 2 buck shot. Internet here I come... I'll test those out this weekend and see what I like.

My other shotgun I thought about using is my 870 12 ga wingmaster, but that is too frigging long for home defense. I'd be worried if I was caught close to somebody it would be too easy to grab the barrel and force it away. I'm about equally as good a shot with either.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Short barrels for 12 ga WMs are neither scarce nor costly. But, your 20 is ready now. Try both and see what happens.

 

[Big Daddy K]

Dont ruin a nice WM by putting on a short aftermarket barell. That's what the Express is for. JMHO

 

[MCgunner]

I stoke my Spartan side by side 20 gauge with 20 count #3 Remington for bedside duty with the IC and cylinder chokes installed. It patterns well out of the modified choke at 30 yards completely covering a torso with holes, only a few missing. Full might be too much choke, not sure, but mod is pretty tight. It also shoots the standard Remington foster slugs well at 50 yards. I haven't tried Buckhammer or Brenneke, yet. It's really a bird gun, but does double duty because it's so friggin' handy with those 20" barrels, and, it ain't gonna jam. I keep a Koplin shell carrier with reloads on the stock.

 

[Big Az Al]

Home defenese?

I was taught that home defense is twenty feet or less! At that range bird shot is going to make one ragged hole almost thru a body!

So are saying you are going to defend against something or someone more then 15 yards away? If they are not inside your home, taking a threatening stance, the legal system will have a field day with YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is not that I dislike BUCK shot, and for awhile did carry a shotgun loaded with buck everywhere I went. It is just there are defense loads, and there is homedefense! One is both varied and defined, and one is what ever keeps you alive when the chips are not only down but scattered all over the floor!

In home defense the questions are; not only will it keep me and mine alive but how much damage is it practical to do to my home and will it defend or make me open to the shiesters? At 40 feet or less and 20 or less is more realistic, bird hunting loads will more then do the job, their potential for damage is more easily contained, and when some attorney tries to twist what you did in to some premeditated plot. The " I was endangered in my home and just defended myself " is going to be really hard to argue against!

So while the buck and slug are the big boy's on the block, you don't have to think that "all I have is SKEET loads, I'm going to die!" becasue at Longer distinces then I know I can legally defend my actions skeet loads are highly effective!

My rant

 

[SigfanUSAF]

I agree with Big Az Al,
Bird shot for me, I want as little overpenatration as possible, especially with kids in the home and neighbors close by.

It has the standard youth short stock and the barrel is cut down to the shortest legal length. Not sure what it is exactly but it is very short.

I would make sure it's above 18" from the bolt face before I'd use it on an intruder. Someone elses mis-measurement when they cut it could land you a visit with a federal prison.

 

[sm]

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[sm]

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[foghornl]

A quick checklist....

41magsnub knows how to use his Model 12 very well.....check
Has short barrel handier during 'indoor use".....check
Can use slug or buck.....check
20-Ga a good choice for this role.....check...already has it on hand

Steve, your points on the BG's holding spouse/children to force compliance are well taken....and chilling to the bone. I survived a "home invasion" 25+ years back, but I still sometimes have cold sweats about it, from the parts I can remember. Getting a sock full of wet sand repeatedly applied to your head will do that. And [sort of] witnessing the gang rape of your spouse while being able to do nothing about it, because you are duct-taped into a ball and drifting in-and-out of conscious state. . . . .

 

[sm]

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[Man With A Gun]

Long Ago And Far Away

Used to do dope raids with BNDD ( old school for DEA) and one of the agents used an ITHACA AUTO BURGLAR 20ga side by side with a pistol grip. Neat little shotgun.

One night a Bad Guy met us at the door with a .45 and hell broke out until that 20 spoke. End of fight.

We all used shotguns from then on and NEVER used buckshot since at close range birdshot is best....still makes one big hole and those doctors can sew up that hole but they will never get all those little pellets.

Low recoil, lots of pellets and stunning results. # 8's work great.

 

[Lancel]

The Box O' Truth has surprising results with bird shot in both 12ga and 20ga:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

At the end of the test is a story about a LEO who died attempting to use bird shot for self defense.

By those informal tests, slugs or buckshot are much better than birdshot. Like some others, I prefer the ability to precisely aim a single slug or bullet...repeated several times if needed.


Larry

 

[Dave McCracken]

Birdshot will work if close enough. Think of a giant .73 caliber Glaser Safety Slug.

For decades I mix loaded with a birdshot load up first. I do not now.

The problem is, life is too uncertain for one to be able to predict just what the distance on a firefight is gonna be.

Heck, that uncertainty is why we HAVE guns.

Buck is effective close and out to maybe 25 yards the best possible choice.

With good 00 aboard, I don't have to swap loads if the action's outside, like much that happened in NOLA after Katrina.

 

[Big Az Al]

This alarming thread makes THR worth it!!!

I have been shot at, I didn't have a chance to shoot back, thank GOD that BG's own stupidity saved my but.

I have also been in life or death situations. I don't really like the iceberg cold that I have felt while working thru those.

And grew up with good training from, what his peers referred to as a very good COP!

One of the little things he taught me:

Having the means to defend yourself good. having the practice to use that means priceless!

Self defense situations are fluid things that grab most people by the seat of their pants when they least expect them!

 

[41magsnub]

Big Az Al: I was just going back through my posts. What exactly is it about this thread that is "Alarming"?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Not alarming at all, save for the prospect of having to use your shotgun in defensive mode.

Sounds to me like great hardware for the job, given a little work at the patterning board. Whatever buckshot load it likes plus whatever slug load it likes should do fine for anything you need it to do. A little shooting will answer those questions for you. Best deal is you already know the chops on that gun.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc (who has fond memories of a Model 12 Riot Gun from police reserve duty in years gone by)

 

[nemoaz]

At that range bird shot is going to make one ragged hole almost thru a body!

No, big Al, it won't. It will create a large, gaping, ugly, horrid-looking superficial wound that is a few inches deep. It may even blow an ear off or blow part of the jaw out. But it won't penetrate most bones or the skull.

I wouldn't use birdshot because if I were forced to shoot someone, I would not want to make a shallow flesh wound . I have PERSONALLY seen two people who took birdshot loads to the head from very short range (one at contact distance) without damaging them enough to keep them from killing you and your family. They were screwed up for sure, but not out of the fight by any means. I PERSONALLY saw these with MY VERY OWN EYES. I didn't hear about it from someones mother's cousin's uncle-in-law.

The gelatin tests agree with my admittedly limited experience.

I won't risk it with my family. Birshot (like a 22) can only be counted on if you make a neck shot in my opinion. That's a mighty small target.

My father was a cop and he swore by the birdshot old wives tale too. Probably still does though I send him ballistic tests from time to time.

If I were forced to carry birdshot it would be the largest shot I could find. I think #2 would be the absolute minimum with BB or T being better.

Back to the original post, +1 on DMcC's advice. 20g is fine and the Model 12 has a legendary reputation.

 

[Regolith]

Somewhere floating around this forum is a link to a web page that shows ballistics gelatin tests using birdshot.

The ONLY size birdshot that penetrated far enough to reliably stop the BG and therefor to be used in self defense was LEAD BB shot from a 12 gauge 2 3/4" shell (that was the largest bird shot they tested). Anything smaller is a no go.

After reading this, I went out and bought some 12 gauge 3" steel T shot, because it was the biggest bird shot I could find and no one in town has buckshot. I plan on doing some of my own testing with it to make sure that it penetrates enough (using milk jugs filled with water) because I am not sure how much difference the fact that they're steel and not lead will make.

I'll take some pictures and let you guys know how it goes when I do. Might take a couple of weeks to build up enough milk jugs to do the test, though (I need around 4-6 of them).

 

[mnrivrat]

A lot of opinion and some good information as well. I quess I will step into the circle and see if I survive with my 2 cents worth.

I suspect that your youth model may have a 21 inch tube which is standard for that gun. I doubt wether anyone would take the time and spend the money to make it even shorter than that, and then set it up for screw in chokes again. This makes a handly small package that handles like a carbine and I also use a simular set-up for HD.

It is always good to know how your shotgun patterns , but you will likely see little difference between the chokes, and the ammo used ,when shooting at the indoor ranges incountered in HD. (30 feet about max) I find that IC is the most common choking for HD work.

Bird shot can work well, but can also be a problem if BG is wearing heavy coat as in a winter setting, or a leather coat, etc. The problem then is lack of penitration. I stick with 2&3/4 inch loads of #3 buckshot.

 

[bpisler]

I think birdshot is "ok" for home defense if
used with a full choke,#4 or larger and with
a heavy enough payload.By then you'll be
using loads with heavier recoil than most
buckshot loads,i just load up with remington
reduced recoil 00 buckshot and call it a day.