Home defense dilemma - pepper spray & long blade

[losangeles]

OK, we all know the most obvious HD weapon are firearms -- shotgun or manstopping handgun. But for whatever reason, someone can't have a firearm (he's prohibited by law due to preconditions or his family is just anti-gun sheeple or a judgment took away all his possessions, whatever).

Long blades are good. But pepper spray, like the Fox Labs 1-lb cannister is good, too, and better in a sense that it has a longer range -- you can spray someone 15 feet away. Now, here's the dilemma: You use the pepper spray at a distance, incapacitate the BG momentarily but that's only temporarily as we all know (good for 5 - 10 minutes). Tactically, it'd be easy enough to take advantage of the temporary advantage of the pepper spray and attack with your machete and off the BG's head off or chop off some limbs, but you know that's not going to go over too well in court (using excessive violence on a defenseless BG).

I just bought this pepper spray manual, and it recommends spraying then escaping to a "safe" room in the house and waiting for the police -- a completely passive approach that doesn't end the attack.

I suppose you can just do away with the pepper spray and use the long blade to off the BGs head or cut off limbs but you lose the advantage of the pepper spray's range and may be endangering your family as a result.

Suggestions, anybody? (Please stay within the premise of the pepper spray/long blade dilemma.)

Would it make any difference if there were multiple BGs? Say, 5. You spray and incapacitate all 5, then cut off the limbs of all of them. This would sound defensible to me. What do you think? (Although the appearance might make you seem like some psycho killer -- having 5 severed heads in the living room.)

 

[bad LT]

Not quite legal advise but:

Spray to stop. Use the long blade to stop. Hit the attacker with a chair to stop them. Shoot them with your shotgun to stop them. Your objective should not be to kill an attacker - it is to stop an attacker (preferably with the most efficient means available).

 

[losangeles]

Spray to stop. Use the long blade to stop. Hit the attacker with a chair to stop them. Shoot them with your shotgun to stop them. Your objective should not be to kill an attacker - it is to stop an attacker (preferably with the most efficient means available).

Thanks for your input.

The dilemma is that the spray is a temporary stop and you are in your own home. Good for about 10 minutes. You might have 5 bad guys writhing around on the ground from the spray, but you can't just be hanging around and waiting for them to come to. And I'm not convinced about the manual's suggestion to run to the "safe" room in your house waiting for the police. I guess you can stand around and spray them again later but that's not a good idea either.

If you have 5 bad guys writhing around in the living room, and you have a family that's been threatened, somehow, it seems compelling to stop the bad guys even "more". If you have a blade, that's a tool to do it. But I don't know how you could selectively apply a blade so as not to "overdo" the stoppage, if you know what I mean. I suppose (kind of absurd, but academic) you can wait to have them come to to where they're a sufficient threat again, then you can justifiably (?) knife them (again -- emphasis on absurd).

All hypothetical of course, but definitely realistic.

 

[losangeles]

I will add that I used to live in an area near Compton, California (notorious origin of Crips & Bloods, gangsta rap, and sometimes #1 crime city in the States), and have experienced a daytime home invasion by 3 bad guys.

Unfortunately, my mother-in-law and another grandmotherly friend of hers were in the house. Fortunately, nothing much came of it. The bad guys were rummaging through the rooms and when they found the 2 older women (scared) in one of the rooms, they ran away.

Scared the hell out of the women.

 

[jashobeam]

5-10 minute pepper-spray incapacitation time?

I had my friend spray me in the face with pepper spray. My eyes were closed while he sprayed me. When I even attempted to open my eyes they closed so hard that I thought my eyelashes were going to gouge out my eyeballs! Breathing was difficult too. I had to exhale as completely as I could in order to initiate inhalation. This lasted for over 20 minutes! And during about 18 of these 20 minutes I was rinsing my face with water and Johnson & Johnson's Baby shampoo. BTW, I've heard that milk works better. I couldn't even force my eyes open with my fingers. I was not, however, writhing around on the ground; I remained standing the whole time. If I'd had a knife in my hand and had gotten a hold of a "victim" (or whoever sprayed me), I would have been quite capable of doing lethal damage. Though the pain was very intense and occupied most of my attention, had I been a violent person consumed with vengeful hatred, I definitely would have been able to stab or strike someone, were I determined to do so. As it was, I just wanted it all to end. I remember thinking how helpless I'd be if I'd been surrounded my a rioting mob (instead of my friends who were laughing at me the whole time).

Anyway, to answer your question, if I were to spray an intruder and successfully render him as incapacitated as I had been, I would tell him that I had a very sharp sword ready to slice him with, and that if he stumbled anywhere close to me I would either cut him or stab him. I would not leave him alone or unsupervised in my house to recover and carry out any evil intentions.

Or, if you convince the BG (after being sprayed) to lay down on his stomach, you could place the tip of your sword or longblade in the center of his back, essentially "pinning" him. Tell him that as soon as the cops arrive they will be able to help him wash his face.

Multiple intruders: Start by spraying the closest guy(s); cut any others who attack.

If ya really want to KNOW how effective pepper spray is as a defensive option, have someone spray you. I am a HUGE fan and proponent of pepper spray. That stuff sucks to get sprayed with. It took 20 minutes for the effects to begin subsiding; even after that, it was no picnic. I'd say it took close to 45 minutes or an hour to feel more or less normal again. Try it for yourself.

 

[hso]

If you attack an incapacitated person you will find yourself in a world of trouble and almost certainly in jail.

That said, a person sprayed with mace/pepper spray is not always incapacitated and a backup plan is needed. Whether that is to get out of the house altogether or to stand at the ready with a baseball bat (preferable to a knife) to whack the first one that starts to do anything but flee it's your choice. What you can't do is try to hold them while the long wait for the police passes.

 

[JShirley]

with a baseball bat (preferable to a knife)

You know, I read through the preceding replies, so I could get to the bottom, and say, what is this "blade" crap? Use a BAT!

But I see hso beat me to it.

There is a fighting mission for a knife; it is an offensive one. The only other reason to use a knife as a weapon, is if you have NO OTHER GOOD CHOICES; NONE. "Good choices" might mean running, or they could mean chairs, sticks, projectiles, etc. Closing with a known threat is a really dumb idea if there are other good options.

Knives= tools.

Now, other long blades- swords, spears, etc- probably mean jail time for the user. Perception may not be everything, but it's a lot of it.

John

 

[losangeles]

You know, I read through the preceding replies, so I could get to the bottom, and say, what is this "blade" crap? Use a BAT!


John

OK, fair enough. Thanks for your feedback!

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

home-d

German sheperd? Or a nice, big mutt from the pound with a good voice...

Back-up?

Double pillow-case full of old door-knobs... Or a toaster.

 

[losangeles]

Double pillow-case full of old door-knobs... Or a toaster.

Ha, ha, ha.

 

[TMM]

short sword/machete in right (or dominant) hand, billy club in left....

 

[rudolf]

ABC powder fire extinguisher.
Hickory axe handle.

 

[fisherman66]

I'd leave the decapitation and delimbing for the deer hunters.

Spray and leave the area. Call the police from a neighbor's home or cell phone.

Use the pepper spray with florescent paint.

 

[hso]

"Or a toaster."

To quote Bill Murray's character Frank Cross, "The bitch hit me with a toaster!".

 

[JShirley]

I'd leave the decapitation and delimbing for the deer hunters.

Exactly. Let's try to stay in reality-land.

John

 

[p35]

If you start blasting off large amounts of pepper spray indoors, it's probably going to incapacitate you as well. A while ago one of our office Einsteins shot off a short blast into a wastepaper basket to see if it still worked. We had to clear everyone out of the office and ventilate the place for a half hour before we could get back to work. Ask a police officer if he/she likes to transport an arrestee who's been sprayed in their patrol car!

 

[ArmedBear]

The new (I think they call them "2nd generation") Taser is supposed to drop someone straight to the floor by disrupting nerve impulses, not using pain like the early model. Therefore, it is supposed to work very well for stopping an attack, and shot placement is not as critical as with the old type, or a gun for that matter.

Downsides?

* $1000 price tag for a plastic pistol, $30/shot for ammo (!).
* Single shot, though it can be reloaded relatively quickly. But we're talking indoors, so if you flat-out miss, I'd say that anything more time-consuming or fumble-prone than cocking a single-action is not quick enough.
* It is supposed to work through clothing, but I'd bet a motorcycle jacket over a fleece sweater and a shirt would make a REALLY good insulator, if they're good and dry. Then again, I've read that heavy Winter clothes can even stop bullets under some circumstances.

A long blade? You mean a sword? Better learn to use it. With practice, a sword or a long heavy stick can be VERY effective, but only if you know what you are doing and aren't a lardass. Either way, you're talking hand-to-hand combat, and there's no real winner in a knife fight. Debilitating stab injuries can haunt you for the rest of your life. A big, strong, drugged-up perp can take some cuts and grab the sword, and then you're screwed (i.e. dead).

One thing to consider is a VERY high-intensity flashlight. It will blind someone even if he's on PCP (pepper spray and pain won't stop someone on the stuff). Some cops swear by them as non-lethal disabling weapons. They help you see the perp rather than incapacitating you, and they don't leave any trace if you still need to use a baseball bat to stop the goblin in question. That can help in court, especially civil court, when the would-be rapist or murderer and his family sue you for pain and suffering.

Downside of a high-intensity flashlight is that it works on one person at a time, max. But my 2,000,000 candlepower duck-blind-finding spotlight would definitely blind someone in the dark, as would some new high-tech LED lights, which double as blunt weapons.

 

[JShirley]

"Straight to the floor"- no. They will probably stay erect for a second or two, meaning if they were hit while in motion towards you,

you may be reached by an attacker, though he'll be limp if he makes it all the way to you.

Down- yes.

Aftermath- nasty. If you're dumb enough to "play" like this, remember the eye pro!!!!!!

John

 

[TMM]

consider black bear's MAG951 modded flashlight if you're considering a flashlight. 951 lumens should be like...uh... really bright.

~TMM

 

[ceetee]

+1 on p35's post

If you're dead set on pepper spray, get the foam instead. It makes aiming a tad bit harder, but it sticks to the target better, and makes after-action ID's that much easier.

Plus, there's much less decontamintation after.

 

[losangeles]

If you're dead set on pepper spray, get the foam instead. It makes aiming a tad bit harder, but it sticks to the target better, and makes after-action ID's that much easier.

Hmm, thanks for the tip. I've got several different sized cannisters of pepper spray, but I never considered the foam seriously until now.

Actually, I'm not dead set on pepper spray only. I have a Remington 870 as the first option and a choice of handguns as backup. This is a hypothetical scenario, so that I can give good advice to friends who can't possess firearms for any number of reasons.

I like the spray option because of its at-a-distance application. One thing I'm a little confused on is the view that the knife is considered an offensive weapon and not a defensive one, whereas a shotgun and a handgun can be considered defensive. I have a large collection of knives, and the top priority will go to the large blades -- the 20" khukuris and machetes, which by their very nature are messy -- and that's why I introduced the notion of severed limbs, because that's what happens when you use these things, especially as vigorously as you need to in some situations (inasmuch as it will look horrible in court).

If 5 bad guys invaded my home and I didn't have my firearms for whatever reason, the pepper spray will help. Guys here are suggesting a baseball bat instead of a knife for possible follow-through. Fair enough. But if your bat isn't available (again, this is all hypothetical, I realize), I'm inclined to utilize the big blades if I felt my life and family are in danger, as messy as that may be. (Also, I accept the alternative presented earlier by a poster of simply running to a next-door neighbor's house.)

 

[Ellie]

The new (I think they call them "2nd generation") Taser is supposed to drop someone straight to the floor by disrupting nerve impulses, not using pain like the early model.

I wonder if it works with a truly psychotic or drugged person? Maybe - perhaps better than the pain model, eh? Do they test for that?

 

[pauli]

so you find yourself in your house, facing one or more attackers. you have absolutely no firearms or blunt instruments available, but you do manage to get a good shot of pepperspray on each pair of eyes. at this point, you should start hearing voices in your head. i'm thinking arnold's voice - "GET OUT OF HEAH!"

it's ok if you accidentally step on them as you're passing.