How common are split necks...

[Thomasss]

According to Hornady's 10th Powder Guide, you are loading hot. Their max for your bullet and Varget is 41.5. Now Hodgdon, maker of Varget says max is 43.5. If you load hot, and many people do, you should do a ladder test with your powder and afterward then another separate one also with your bullet seating depth.
People I know that tumble wet cases will bake the shells in an oven at 200 degrees for a 1/2 hour to drive off all moisture, which follows explanation by "Slamfire."
I love Remington brass and shoot it exclusively in 30.06. I do examine range cases and look for micro dents, scratches and cracks in the case mouth and neck after trimming and also primer pockets which is a good indicator of a future problems. Many times these defects will be highlighted or also covered by powder residue. It doesn't hurt to look inside the neck either searching for the distinctive greenish-blue corrosion and if found are scrapped right away.
Finally I don't think there is any flaw in your rifle. Some guns can handle heavier charges or closer bullet seating than others. It's just the luck of the draw whether your's or mine does or not.

 

[lightman]

Split necks are pretty common on Federal, Remington and Winchester brass after a few loadings. But 4 out of 50 on the 1st or 2nd firing seems excessive. If its the brass annealing should help. If its a sloppy chamber annealing may or may not help. Do you get any split necks on factory ammo out of that rifle?

A friend has a 6.5 X 55 Sweed that has a sloppy chamber and gets neck splits on every case! Every time!

Winchesters QC got so bad back during the Obama shortages that I was getting 10-12% split necks on the very first firing. It caused me (gave me an excuse) to buy an annealing machine.

 

[243winxb]

Split necks are a product of poor annealing or bad brass when it leaves the factory. Repeated firing/sizing work hardens the brass. Makes it btittle. Then it cracks.

Had some 223 factory fired brass, when reloaded/fired, 97 out of 100 had split necks. Brass was wiped clean with a rag, and loaded. Bad brass.

This may happen also. My standard Fl die has a hard time pulling the expander out of a lubed 223 neck. Its because there is a donut at the neck/shoulder junction, of the brass. Fixed by outside neck turning or bushing dies.

 

[FROGO207]

I once had a rash of neck splits and traced it back to something stuck to the die wall in the neck area. It was like 90% of them failed by neck crack on this reloading cycle. Inspecting the other brass sized at the same time revealed a gouge almost the length of the neck. Polishing the die and not trying to fire the remainder of those sized at the time solved the issue. I still inspect all my brass as I resize for gouges years later though.

 

[LocoGringo]

Do you get any split necks on factory ammo out of that rifle?

Winchesters QC got so bad back during the Obama shortages that I was getting 10-12% split necks on the very first firing. It caused me (gave me an excuse) to buy an annealing machine.

I haven't fired much factory through this rifle. The factory ammo I have used through it has been Hornady and I saw no split necks. The rifle has less than 150 rounds through it...probably MUCH less.

I've been considering getting some kind of annealer, but have seen mixed reviews and posts about specifics and effectiveness. It's close to if you don't buy a $1500 annealer, you're wasting your time and money according some knowledgeable people.

Now, the reason I've thought about buying an annealer is because I have a lot of .308 brass I've thought about resizing to 7mm-08. I would imagine that an annealer would be mandatory with the amount of work hardening that brass would undergo after resizing.

 

[LocoGringo]

According to Hornady's 10th Powder Guide, you are loading hot. Their max for your bullet and Varget is 41.5. Now Hodgdon, maker of Varget says max is 43.5. If you load hot, and many people do, you should do a ladder test with your powder and afterward then another separate one also with your bullet seating depth.
People I know that tumble wet cases will bake the shells in an oven at 200 degrees for a 1/2 hour to drive off all moisture, which follows explanation by "Slamfire."
I love Remington brass and shoot it exclusively in 30.06. I do examine range cases and look for micro dents, scratches and cracks in the case mouth and neck after trimming and also primer pockets which is a good indicator of a future problems. Many times these defects will be highlighted or also covered by powder residue. It doesn't hurt to look inside the neck either searching for the distinctive greenish-blue corrosion and if found are scrapped right away.
Finally I don't think there is any flaw in your rifle. Some guns can handle heavier charges or closer bullet seating than others. It's just the luck of the draw whether your's or mine does or not.

Exactly...I used the 9th edition of the Hornady manual and the Hodgdon website and "gambled" by not going to max according to Hodgdon and going a max of 1.5 grains above Hornady max. I'm not sure what a "ladder" test is, but I loaded 10 rounds of each at 41.0 going to 43.0 increasing by .5 grain for each load. I shot them very slowly and carefully to try to determine what the "best" group was. Now, I'm looking at a second "ladder" to focus on the "best" 2 groups and go from 41.3-42.1 by .2 grain. My best 2 groups were at 41.5 and 42.0 grains. Once I find the "best" groups from there, I may experiment with seating depth. It's a hunting rifle, so I'm not trying to get .25" groups, but I'd like to know that the rifle and ammo are going to deliver consistently.

After wet tumbling my brass, I thoroughly rinse them and remove them from the drum by hand, inspect them to make sure they have no issues or stuck pins, and also heat them to about 200 degrees in a hot plate stirring them until dry. It takes just a few minutes to dry, but I'm sure the 200 degrees isn't doing a darn thing to the brass metallurgy.

 

[N555]

30-30 has such a long history and the type of gun it was used in, makes me believe there are chambers from mild to wild as far as specifications go. If ever a caliber were to be treated as an individual that gets my vote. I'm shooting an 80s 94 and I'm trying to figure out just how cavernous my chamber is.

I have worked on 3 other 94s and mine appears to be loosest chamber out of all of them. I could neck size their brass, load it and shoot it in my rifle.

 

[N555]

I haven't fired much factory through this rifle. The factory ammo I have used through it has been Hornady and I saw no split necks. The rifle has less than 150 rounds through it...probably MUCH less.

I've been considering getting some kind of annealer, but have seen mixed reviews and posts about specifics and effectiveness. It's close to if you don't buy a $1500 annealer, you're wasting your time and money according some knowledgeable people.

Now, the reason I've thought about buying an annealer is because I have a lot of .308 brass I've thought about resizing to 7mm-08. I would imagine that an annealer would be mandatory with the amount of work hardening that brass would undergo after resizing.

All we know is the expensive induction annealer, the AMP gets the brass pretty hot, then you size it. One guy doing a YouTube video on the AMP tried running afew sized cases through the AMP machine, then loading them, he got low and variable neck tension. He was one of those people who used to size then annealed at 850f. He was following the AMP directions, just did a few to see what would happen.

 

[Thomasss]

I'm not sure what a "ladder" test is, but I loaded 10 rounds of each at 41.0 going to 43.0 increasing by .5 grain for each load. I shot them very slowly and carefully to try to determine what the "best" group was

You did a ladder by slowly increasing your loads. .5 grain increments is a pretty big jump, but it is your call depending on your available components. .2 grins sounds a lot better. Another form of ladder is to have several targets up and shoot 1 shot from each powder group at a particular target and go down the line 1 shot from the next powder group to tartget #2 target and have enough targets up for the total number of powder groups. Then repeat the process with 2nd shot to each group, etc. That way if the barrel get hot or you start flinching no one group will be worse just because of your mistakes. It makes for a more positive result. (No false positives or false negatives).

 

[peeplwtchr]

How old was the commercially loaded ammunition when you fired it?

You have been taught to discount the age of gunpowder, probably taught that gunpowder lasts forever, and if it fails, it fails benignly. Am I correct?

Well, none of the above is true. Gunpowder is breaking down the day it is leaving the factory. There are stabilizers in gunpowder, designed to soak up the NOx that results from nitrocellulose deterioration, but in time, the stabilizer runs out. Gunpowder lifetime is so unpredictable, mostly depending how much acid was left in the nitrocellulose and storage temperatures. NOx is a spectrum of chemicals, one of which is NO2, nitrogen dioxide. Which is a horrible oxidizer, and when NO2 runs into a water molecule, (call it humidity) it turns into nitric acid gas. When the stabilizer runs low, you have nitric acid gas and NO2 in the case. And that attacks brass.

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I did not know any better about the lifetime of gunpowder when I reloaded these cases back early 1990's. Well guess what happened in 2017

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sometimes the NOx leaks out of the case, pools in the cartridge box, and you see this.

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a bud purchased LC 1969 pulldown IMR 4895. You get what you pay for

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this might have been some of the pulldown IMR 4895 I purchased. I loaded ammo boxes of good LC match brass, and upon firing, case neck splits and case head cracks. The brass had been weakened by gunpowder outgassing NOx

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More pulldown powder purchased at Camp Perry.

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Vihtavuori powder from the 1990's has been going bad all over the place. Happened to me. The Finns live in a very cold place, maybe they skimp on stabilizer.

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So, lets say what you are seeing is the result of deteriorating gunpowder attacking your brass. Then to state it briefly: you are up the creek. You can shoot the stuff until all case necks crack. You do run the risk of case head separations, maybe even a pin hole that finally works its way through the case head. And, there is nothing you can do to fix this. No amount of washing, hand waving, rain dancing is going to reverse corrosion. Train wreck already happened.

Awesome post.

 

[Thomasss]

My test loads ranged from 41.0-43.0 grains of Varget.

May I ask what you expect to accomplish from your end results?

 

[Slamfire]

Awesome post.

People ought to know this. For one thing, it has changed my reloading habits. I don't let loaded ammunition sit around, I shoot up the oldest first. And then, I size, trim, prime rifle brass, and don't load it till I need to. Basically I have this itch that the loaded brass on my ammunition is wasting away, and the only way to scratch, is to shoot it up. I also sniff my gunpowder, and if it smells bitter, I pour it out.

And I have not gone into the pressure rises, and blowups that occurs with old gunpowder. People ought to know this too, and I have written about it, but if someone is curious, they can find the information.

The thing is, Trolls combined with industry have kept this information away from the shooting community. Trolls are deniers, who knows what really motivates them. I think they want to live forever, and therefore their ammunition has to live forever. Telling them ammunition has a finite lifetime gets them really angry, because if their ammunition is finite, then so are they. And to them, that is tantamount to murder. There is nothing rational in denial at all. The people who actually know about gunpowder lifetime, the dangers, don't want the stress of dealing with angry irrational people. So they stay away from discussing what they know. And then, industry feeds the trolls with disinformation. Because industry wants an ill informed consumer who makes irrational choices.

One bad thing is, every day a wise man dies, and every minute ten thousand ignorant babies are born. The natural state of humanity is ignorance and superstition. Every thing done to educate the shooting community will in time, be washed away by the tide of time. It is inevitable. This has happened before, and it will happen again.

 

[LocoGringo]

May I ask what you expect to accomplish from your end results?

I would be happy with .75" 5-shot groups consistently. My two 5-shot groups at 41.5 grains were 1.224" and 1.14", BUT the 4-shot groups were .623" and .757" respectively. Each group had 1 shot open it up, otherwise the groups were right there. The 2 individual groups were even shaped similarly. That's why I'm focusing more towards the 41.5 load.



These tests are also dependent on the suppressor that the rifle will wear consistently and the scope. These tests were done with bare muzzle, not with the suppressor and a heavier target style scope. The suppressor hasn't arrived yet and the scope hasn't been made yet. I expect the suppressor will arrive Sep./Oct. timeframe and I have it on good authority from the scope manufacturer that the scope will be released in June (hopefully). The scope I'm using now is a good scope, but it's heavier and has a higher power range than the one I will be buying later this year.

 

[Highland Lofts]

It seams the older brass holds up better then new brass.
Also brass is different from manufacturer to manufacturer.
And also lot to lot.
Just use it up until it fails.

 

[AJC1]

I would be happy with .75" 5-shot groups consistently. My two 5-shot groups at 41.5 grains were 1.224" and 1.14", BUT the 4-shot groups were .623" and .757" respectively. Each group had 1 shot open it up, otherwise the groups were right there. The 2 individual groups were even shaped similarly. That's why I'm focusing more towards the 41.5 load.

View attachment 1145764

These tests are also dependent on the suppressor that the rifle will wear consistently and the scope. These tests were done with bare muzzle, not with the suppressor and a heavier target style scope. The suppressor hasn't arrived yet and the scope hasn't been made yet. I expect the suppressor will arrive Sep./Oct. timeframe and I have it on good authority from the scope manufacturer that the scope will be released in June (hopefully). The scope I'm using now is a good scope, but it's heavier and has a higher power range than the one I will be buying later this year.

You could go old school br and remove the cases that give the offending fliers and see if you get better results... low tech but arguably effective.

 

[Thomasss]

Another similar idea is to rack your cases in the order of firing them. Then mark your target hits in order of the hit 1, 2, 3, etc. Now you can compare the precision with cartridge and then go back and check your cartridge case again for possible answers. Maybe the flyer was a cracked case or a loose primer pocket or slightly shorter case?
You only showed only two targets, it would be better to show the target on the other side of the "ideal" load. I would like to see a target at 1.227 off lands and a charge of 41.3

 

[LocoGringo]

Another similar idea is to rack your cases in the order of firing them. Then mark your target hits in order of the hit 1, 2, 3, etc. Now you can compare the precision with cartridge and then go back and check your cartridge case again for possible answers. Maybe the flyer was a cracked case or a loose primer pocket or slightly shorter case?
You only showed only two targets, it would be better to show the target on the other side of the "ideal" load. I would like to see a target at 1.227 off lands and a charge of 41.3

1.227” off the lands seems a bit far…

I haven’t gotten to the “ideal” load yet. Give me a chance to load more test loads and the 41.3 will be among them. Hold your horses…

 

[Thomasss]

1.227” off the lands seems a bit far…

I'm just looking at your pictures and agree that "Varget 1" looks very promising. Your "Varget 2" is opening up like you say. So go in the opposite direction a little and I didn't think .003" was a major jump considering you are showing me pictures that are .084 in the other direction. Also from your description, you are prepping your cases correctly so corrosion isn't a major issue so I would like to see the reaction to your cases in lightening up the load a little in the process. It shouldn't have an adverse effect on your testing.