How do brass frame 1858's hold up?

[TTv2]

I've been wanting a steel frame Pietta Buffalo 12 inch 1858 for years now, but don't feel comfortable paying full price for a new one, so I've trolled Gunbroker for a long time and have not come up with much. Brass frames are always available, sometimes cheap, but I'm not into brass framed revolvers due to their weakness and propensity to stretch under hot loads.

But, I'm at the point where it's either I pay the $370 for a new steel frame or I buy a brass frame model or I never buy a 12 inch 1858 as long as I live.

What I don't know is if the top strap of the 1858 design will help add strength and reduce frame stretching. How well can a brass 1858 frame last using 200 grain conicals and warm to hot loads of Triple 7 and Pyrodex?

I figure even if the frame does stretch and become unusable, I'll still have the cylinder and several other spare parts I can use on other Pietta NMA's I have.

Idk, if the frame will stretch after a handful of range trips, it may not be worth bothering with them. Also, what are the chances a used brass frame 1858 will already be stretched?

 

[Starter52]

Brass frame revolvers are cheaply made, in my experience. The frame stretching has never been too much of a problem for me. Weak springs that break after a few trips to the range, poorly fitted grips and just an overall penny-pinching cheapness is more of a problem.

If the gun was originally designed for a steel frame, but has a brass frame, I avoid it. Generally, if they tried to save a few Euros by using a cheaper brass frame then they likely went bargain-basement on the rest of the gun as well.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

In my experience newer brass and steel bodied revolvers from pietta have the same quality internals, barrels, and cylinders that are used on their standard steel models...they get the same handsprings, sear springs, bolt, hammer, grips and cylinder from the same lot. Some models get extra attention by a gun tech working on the timing etc and if your lucky you get a brass model that waa assembled by a season tech that knows what hes doing...but at the same time sometimes a tech who isnt as experienced can be working on a more expensive steel framed model or may just not care enough cuz they want to go on lunch break or its closing time etc. Ive seen some really slick well timed and assembled brass models and some gritty poorly fitted steel framed models...so its a toss up...but the same hand spring, main spring, bolt, cylinders etc were taken from the same batch whether brass or steel framed. I can put two main springs together and no one would be able to tell me which one was pulled from a steel or brass framed model. Atleast thats what ive come to experience and have been told by a couple people who assemble these guns at the factory...some of the company techs hang out in the European forums.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

another thing...juat about every italian gun needs some fine tuning and fitting...when it comes to brass framed colts i put a screw/pin down from top of the inside of the frame hammer slot all the way into the steel arbor...it guarantees the arbor wont be pulled out of the brass frame. Then i form a steel washer to size and thickness and replace the brass ring that the cylinder slams into and makes indents into. It takes a bit of work...but it will be as strong as any steel frame. I had two brass bodied round barreled guns i did this to for a friend and now he does it for all his.guns...he only shoots brass frames for the "confederate" look. He shoots stout loads too...not a single issue in more than 6 years

 

[skeeterfogger]

Have seen brass frames on rem and colt that stretched. The rem top strap was near toiching the cylinder and the colt had barrel droop. Do yourself a favor and get the steel frame.

 

[arcticap]

I've been wanting a steel frame Pietta Buffalo 12 inch 1858 for years now, but don't feel comfortable paying full price for a new one, so I've trolled Gunbroker for a long time and have not come up with much. Brass frames are always available, sometimes cheap, but I'm not into brass framed revolvers due to their weakness and propensity to stretch under hot loads.

But, I'm at the point where it's either I pay the $370 for a new steel frame or I buy a brass frame model or I never buy a 12 inch 1858 as long as I live.

What I don't know is if the top strap of the 1858 design will help add strength and reduce frame stretching. How well can a brass 1858 frame last using 200 grain conicals and warm to hot loads of Triple 7 and Pyrodex?

I figure even if the frame does stretch and become unusable, I'll still have the cylinder and several other spare parts I can use on other Pietta NMA's I have.

Idk, if the frame will stretch after a handful of range trips, it may not be worth bothering with them. Also, what are the chances a used brass frame 1858 will already be stretched?

IMO it's not that the 1858 brass frame will stretch.
However on the brass Remington's, the cylinder pin hole in the recoil shield can become worn and enlarge due to wear.
This can cause the cylinder to go out of alignment over a period of time depending on the amount of wear and tear.
There's a fix for it which may involve inserting a cylinder pin bushing or sleeve in the recoil shield.
But it needs to be installed in near perfect alignment.
Stiff loads over a period of time may cause that to happen, but no one can predict if or when.
That's why so many recommend loading no more than a maximum of 25 - 30 grains of powder and with a round ball only, and even then no one can predict how long the cylinder pin hole will remain round before it elongates.

 

[TTv2]

IMO it's not that the 1858 brass frame will stretch.
However on the brass Remington's, the cylinder pin hole in the recoil shield can become worn and enlarge due to wear.
This can cause the cylinder to go out of alignment over a period of time depending on the amount of wear and tear.
There's a fix for it which may involve inserting a cylinder pin bushing or sleeve in the recoil shield.
But it needs to be installed in near perfect alignment.
Stiff loads over a period of time may cause that to happen, but no one can predict if or when.
That's why so many recommend loading no more than a maximum of 25 - 30 grains of powder and with a round ball only, and even then no one can predict how long the cylinder pin hole will remain round before it elongates.

Well the good news is I'm a machinist and can mill or ream the hole open and install a bushing in the recoil shield. Thing is with these being used revolvers, they may already be worn out.

Like I said, even if the brass does get worn/stretched I can use the spare parts on my other Pietta 1858s. Cylinders are $64 at Cabela's and some of the used revolvers come with a spare cylinder, holsters, round balls, or other extras.

I'm gonna have to think on this. There's no guarantee I'll like the feel of the long 12 inch barrel NMA's and I'd hate to blow $370 on something I wouldn't like and likely lose $100 or more reselling it and it's not like there's a store near me who has them in stock so I could get a feel for them.

Idk, the more I think about it, the more I feel buying a used brass frame on the cheap first, trying it, and moving up to a steel frame later is the better choice to make.

 

[TTv2]

You will regret purchasing a brass framed 1858 more than you will not buying one.

If I end up having to buy a steel frame Buffalo 1858 after the brass one goes kaput, that's okay with me. It beats spending $370 on a new one and finding out I don't like the way they feel in the hand or shoot.

 

[noelf2]

Sounds like you have a plan. I had a similar plan, but my intention was to have a shoulder stock on one, and I liked it. I found it started peening the recoil shield after only a couple cylinders with 25 grains fffg. It sat in my safe for a while. I eventually got a Uberti carbine and sold the pietta buffalo, with the shoulder stock.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I'm not anal about historical accuracy, but many folks into BP are, so it could be another reason to stay away. While there were confederate brass frame revolvers substantially based on Colts there were not confederate brass frame copies of 1858 Remingtons unless you can convince yourself it looks enough like a Spiller & Burr.

Have you looked for a 12in barrel to "upgrade" a standard 1858? You might stumble onto a sweet deal on the revolver if barrel condition is not a factor.

VTI lists a Pietta Buffalo barrel for $125 although it looks like it may or may not be in stock
https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=67&cat=Pietta+1858+Remington,+Tiro

 

[noelf2]

Have you looked for a 12in barrel to "upgrade" a standard 1858?

The newer pietta revolver barrels are not very removable. They put some kind of locktite or solder on the threads. I suppose a good gunsmith could do it, but would need to make a special frame wrench for it and heat the frame/barrel junction. You would most likely spend way more than just buying a steel frame buffalo. Not trying to sound defeatest, but I've been down this road.

 

[4v50 Gary]

With modern metallurgy, I would think that a strong, brass framed gun could be made. Witness the lever action Henrys. However, who's to say any modern maker of cap 'n ball would use the same brass alloy that Henry does? That said, brass frames would not be high on my list for acquisitions. Now brass barrels or lock plates for flintlocks are another matter.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

The newer pietta revolver barrels are not very removable...

In that case, acquiring an older example or at least removing the old barrel before purchasing the replacement might be prudent.

I shaped up some hardwood pads for my vice several years ago for that "special frame wrench" you also eluded to. Then a piece of old boot leather around the barrel with a second vice secured.

A little heat will break Loctite loose. A propane torch or heat gun will work.

The OP indicated they were a machinist so they likely can handle the job.

 

[noelf2]

In that case, acquiring an older example or at least removing the old barrel before purchasing the replacement might be prudent.

I shaped up some hardwood pads for my vice several years ago for that "special frame wrench" you also eluded to. Then a piece of old boot leather around the barrel with a second vice secured.

A little heat will break Loctite loose. A propane torch or heat gun will work.

The OP indicated they were a machinist so they likely can handle the job.

If the op goes that route, I'd be interested in a step by step account.

 

[skeeterfogger]

I've been wanting a steel frame Pietta Buffalo 12 inch 1858 for years now, but don't feel comfortable paying full price for a new one, so I've trolled Gunbroker for a long time and have not come up with much. Brass frames are always available, sometimes cheap, but I'm not into brass framed revolvers due to their weakness and propensity to stretch under hot loads.

But, I'm at the point where it's either I pay the $370 for a new steel frame or I buy a brass frame model or I never buy a 12 inch 1858 as long as I live.

What I don't know is if the top strap of the 1858 design will help add strength and reduce frame stretching. How well can a brass 1858 frame last using 200 grain conicals and warm to hot loads of Triple 7 and Pyrodex?

I figure even if the frame does stretch and become unusable, I'll still have the cylinder and several other spare parts I can use on other Pietta NMA's I have.

Idk, if the frame will stretch after a handful of range trips, it may not be worth bothering with them. Also, what are the chances a used brass frame 1858 will already be stretched?

Get the rem target. Better QC especially the barrel. Can't go wrong with it. I have 1 I've had for 20 years and 1 I just built from parts, they are my goto pistols. Even with my older eyes they hit on 2" center at 25-30 feet all day long.

 

[TTv2]

I'm not anal about historical accuracy, but many folks into BP are, so it could be another reason to stay away. While there were confederate brass frame revolvers substantially based on Colts there were not confederate brass frame copies of 1858 Remingtons unless you can convince yourself it looks enough like a Spiller & Burr.

Have you looked for a 12in barrel to "upgrade" a standard 1858? You might stumble onto a sweet deal on the revolver if barrel condition is not a factor.

VTI lists a Pietta Buffalo barrel for $125 although it looks like it may or may not be in stock
https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=67&cat=Pietta+1858+Remington,+Tiro

One of the reasons I want the Buffalo is the adjustable rear sights. Pietta does make an 8 inch model with those sights and Cabela's has them, but I want the 12 inch.

As far as the barrel goes, I wouldn't be into just buying a barrel at that price and swapping it onto another gun. I'd rather buy the brass revolver and if after the frame goes, I can figure out how to remove the barrel. They probably use red Loctite, cheaper and easier than soldering and red Loctite comes off after a few minutes of heating with a torch.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...r+Sight,+Target+Style+for+Remington+Revolvers

A little over 20 bux gets you the adjustable rear sight..although the 12 inch barrel can probably be purchased new or used...maybe find an abused brass buffalo remington real cheap and just swap barrels.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

As for removing pietta remington barrels...a friend of mine, Roy, does it by placing the barrel in a lead sheet lined vice (just puts a small sheet of roofing lead around the barrel) and then places a wooden shaft in between the frames top and bottom ...like straight through where the cylinder goes...and he just torques the wooden shaft (usually a long hammer or shovel/hoe handle) and twists the body off the barrel...not the barrel off the body. We had a mutual friend spend days trying to safely remove the barrel from a pietta 1858 and it just wouldn't budge...then roy says "its easy...bring it to my place and ill have it off in a few minutes". We were skeptical and figured Roy didnt know what he was in for...then when we saw him detach the barrel within minutes we were both thinking "omg that's so simple! Why didnt we think of that?!" This method somewhat guarantees you wont mar up the barrel or even the body...atleast it significantly lessens the chance of damage.

 

[TTv2]

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/1818/category/510/category_chain/392,496,506,510/product_name/EP2600+Rear+Sight,+Target+Style+for+Remington+Revolvers

A little over 20 bux gets you the adjustable rear sight..although the 12 inch barrel can probably be purchased new or used...maybe find an abused brass buffalo remington real cheap and just swap barrels.

And then I also have to buy drills and taps and then drill/tap the frame. It's not work I want to be doing, so buying any old steel frame 1858, then the barrel, and all the tools, plus the sight is dumb.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Ttv2...yeah unless you already have the tools then it is a lost cause financially speaking. Sorry...shoulda asked if you got tools or perhaps a small garage shop.

 

[noelf2]

If I end up having to buy a steel frame Buffalo 1858 after the brass one goes kaput, that's okay with me. It beats spending $370 on a new one and finding out I don't like the way they feel in the hand or shoot.

I'm going to challenge your logic a little. Some folks don't like that. Hoping you are ok with it.

You will find that a used brass Pietta Buffalo 12" barrel revolver, in very good condition, will be $200 (at least, remember shipping and such). If you shoot stout loads till it goes "kaput", then you can part it out and maybe get $100 for the parts (grips, barrel, internals, all but the kaput frame). You will be out at least $100 and the time spent to pull the parts and sell them on ebay or some such. Now, instead of all that, lets say you get a steel frame buffalo and spend $370. You won't ruin it with the stout loads you want to put through it, but as you say, you may not like the long barrel after all. You sell it for a $100 loss. Either way, you are out the same money, and you didn't ruin a gun with loads not recommended by the manufacturer. If you decide you like the steel frame and want to keep it, you spent $370, not $570 (with $100 back for parts on the brasser, total would be $470).

 

[noelf2]

Sorry, duplicate post...

 

[Carl N. Brown]

How well do brass frame 1858's hold up?
Not as well as steel frame 1858's made to the same standards of fit and finish.

Historically, Confederate "brass" revolver frames were cast of donated church bells, bell metal (a form of bronze 78% copper, 22% tin), similar to gunmetal ("red brass" 88 copper- 9 tin- 3 zinc) but both different from brass (70 copper- 30 zinc). .

 

[TTv2]

I'm going to challenge your logic a little. Some folks don't like that. Hoping you are ok with it.

You will find that a used brass Pietta Buffalo 12" barrel revolver, in very good condition, will be $200 (at least, remember shipping and such). If you shoot stout loads till it goes "kaput", then you can part it out and maybe get $100 for the parts (grips, barrel, internals, all but the kaput frame). You will be out at least $100 and the time spent to pull the parts and sell them on ebay or some such. Now, instead of all that, lets say you get a steel frame buffalo and spend $370. You won't ruin it with the stout loads you want to put through it, but as you say, you may not like the long barrel after all. You sell it for a $100 loss. Either way, you are out the same money, and you didn't ruin a gun with loads not recommended by the manufacturer. If you decide you like the steel frame and want to keep it, you spent $370, not $570 (with $100 back for parts on the brasser, total would be $470).

Yeah, either way I'm losing money, but I thought last night that after I buy the brass one and I liked the Buffalo, I could keep the cylinder and sell the rest of the gun for $50-75. I figure those who'd be interested in the long barrel model would, like me, already have a 58 Remington with a shorter barrel and steel frame, possibly a few spare cylinders, and would be interested in trying the super long barrel with the adjustable sights.

At $50, that's as low a price as they'll ever be able to get one for.

 

[J-Bar]

Buy one. Shoot it until it breaks. Buy another.