How do you induce a LeMat kaboom?

[AlexanderA]

OK, this is a technical question involving something that happened in the season finale of HBO's Westworld. I know, it's Hollywood, but I would still like a plausible explanation of what happened.

The Man in Black (Ed Harris) carries a LeMat revolver with 9 shots in the cylinder plus a shot charge in the central axis barrel. (This has been adapted to fire cartridges, but that may or may not be relevant.) Dolores (Evan Rachel Wood) takes a fired, flattened slug and inserts it into the gun so as to sabotage it. Then she hands the gun back to the MiB. The next time the MiB goes to use the gun, he fires 9 shots normally. Then he flips the hammer extension down to fire the central barrel. That's when the gun blows up, mangling his hand.

Would putting extra lead in that barrel cause enough back pressure to blow it up? Remember, this did not involve increasing the amount of propellant. If, say, we were to double the weight of the projectile in a cap-and-ball revolver without increasing the powder charge, could that cause a catastrophic failure?

 

[Tommygunn]

Really? Special effects, probably CGI. It's Hollywood.

 

[J-Bar]

If that flattened slug were jammed tightly into the shotgun barrel then it might cause overpressure as an obstruction. But yeah it was a bit hokey. As if the rest of the show were more believable! Don’t get me wrong, I love it. I’m saving them all on the DVR and will enjoy watching each episode again. But it is Sci-Fi after all!

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

OK, anybody else here catching the irony of us discussing the plausibility of how a blackpowder revolver can be sabotaged to blow up the hand of an android...?

 

[WestKentucky]

OK, anybody else here catching the irony of us discussing the plausibility of how a blackpowder revolver can be sabotaged to blow up the hand of an android...?

History has shown repeatedly that the process of progression quite often deals with regression then adaptation along a different path. Many early failed automobiles were electric, but then we evolved along the internal combustion engine, now we are slowly but surely ditching it to go to electric. Even in Hollywood that is pretty well accepted...Marty McFly went from skateboard to board with skates and then to hover board. It’s not at all unthinkable that we will progress small arms by reverting back to eliminate the current limiting component-the cartridge case...hello frontstuffers, volcanic arms, and gyro jet.

 

[rodwha]

I went to Accurate Molds and created a few designs, one specifically for my ROA thinking I might well be moving to VA and getting an opportunity to hunt black bears. I designed this bullet to be quite heavy despite the short(er) length with longer than typical driving bands to help drive up the pressures knowing the Ruger can handle it and it would only help with velocity knowing it stole from the powder capacity. Someone following the threads asked for some samples and decided to try one in his Walker with 52 grns of Pyrodex P and it blew his cylinder open.

He was the third owner of this ASM gun, known for having quality issues. Was it the weight and friction? High charge? Hard to say. And quite frankly no one knows if it was never misused or neglected.

Some people felt it was likely charged with smokeless, which I highly doubt as he seems experienced enough. Maybe one never knows but I seriously doubt it.

Regardless an air space between the powder or between projectiles will certainly cause an issue. Sometimes you get away with a barrel bulge or a banana peel...

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

History has shown repeatedly that the process of progression quite often deals with regression then adaptation along a different path. Many early failed automobiles were electric, but then we evolved along the internal combustion engine, now we are slowly but surely ditching it to go to electric. Even in Hollywood that is pretty well accepted...Marty McFly went from skateboard to board with skates and then to hover board. It’s not at all unthinkable that we will progress small arms by reverting back to eliminate the current limiting component-the cartridge case...hello frontstuffers, volcanic arms, and gyro jet.

Well put.
I recall a fellow with a "fine hat" carrying a 58 Remington in a episode of Firefly, kind of the same thing.

 

[AlexanderA]

Regardless an air space between the powder or between projectiles will certainly cause an issue. Sometimes you get away with a barrel bulge or a banana peel...

It seems to me that the central (shotgun) barrel in a LeMat would be weak in the chamber area, since the outside diameter is limited by having to act as the cylinder pin. If you place a lump of lead ahead of the existing projectile, creating an air space, you might increase the pressure to the point of failure. But I doubt that anyone is going to do destructive testing on a LeMat to verify this. Therefore it remains speculation. Anyway all this makes me want to go out and buy a LeMat. It's certainly an interesting design.

 

[rodwha]

Absolutely think they are intriguing. Wonder how effective the shotgun barrel really is though. I’ve seen some people claim the 12” barrels of the Howdah are useless for anything but fun. And fun is fine but I typically prefer more practical or utilitarian.

 

[PainlessWolf]

Good evening!
50 grains of 2F, wadding of flax, 2 ounces of 00 or a single 16 gauge ball and more flax wadding. Touch it off even from the short shotgun barrel of the LeMat and it is an effective load. Shatters glass, plastic, perforates wood and most everything else in front of it. Designed as a cavalry mans weapon to tag a wide area close up, it does the job. The other 9 rounds of .44 are useful as well. Some folks want to modernize them but I have found that if I do my part, the LeMat works just fine as is.
regards!

 

[rodwha]

Good evening!
50 grains of 2F, wadding of flax, 2 ounces of 00 or a single 16 gauge ball and more flax wadding. Touch it off even from the short shotgun barrel of the LeMat and it is an effective load. Shatters glass, plastic, perforates wood and most everything else in front of it. Designed as a cavalry mans weapon to tag a wide area close up, it does the job. The other 9 rounds of .44 are useful as well. Some folks want to modernize them but I have found that if I do my part, the LeMat works just fine as is.
regards!

I must admit to being quite curious. Shattering glass or plastic doesn’t say much but perforating wood wood could very well.

 

[RecoilRob]

The loads put into the cylinder are limited by what will fit and still seat the ball below flush so it'll rotate...but the shotgun barrel can be stuffed with as much of whatever you wish so caution must be exercised when loading. TV writers get desperate for plot ideas sometimes and will push their normal ignorance of firearms to new levels, so it all should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt and enjoyed for whatever it offers and not look too deeply into the mechanics of things or the holes become obvious enough to detract from viewing pleasure.

 

[paul harm]

If there's a barrel obstruction, yes it can blow. In modern shotguns just a plastic wad stuck in the barrel have been known to blow them. Hasn't anyone heard of someone letting the muzzles of a shotgun get snow or mud in them and when fired the barrels blew up ? It's no different with BP. Don't push the load down on the powder and give the powder going off room to expand until it hits the obstruction and boom. It's when the powder going off can expand and build pressure before something tries to stop it is when barrels blow up. Even rifle barrels which are a lot thicker than shotgun barrels will blow.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If there's a barrel obstruction, yes it can blow

Yeah, I think the director had the idea that this was what was going on or what they were trying to simulate ..., but if she simply rammed a double load of shot, then very doubtful it would blow up the gun, and if the character was using a large single ball, and she rammed a second one down...then NOPE, doubtful (it's not just the weight it's the friction that would cause problems) . Shotgun barrels blow due to a stuck wad because they are super thin, while the LeMatt barrel is thinner at the breech than say a similar barrel on a shoulder fired shotgun, it doesn't taper to being nearly as thin as that same shoulder fired shotgun. NOW..., Might really harm the wrist of a human..., but the character was an android, so no sore wrist there..., so why would it damage the android's hand..., might blow off the simulated skin, but damage the hand? She didn't load it with Blue Dot did she?

LD

 

[AlexanderA]

NOW..., Might really harm the wrist of a human..., but the character was an android, so no sore wrist there..., so why would it damage the android's hand..., might blow off the simulated skin, but damage the hand?

The Man in Black was (apparently) a human. The incident either blew off his hand or mangled it severely. Now, this is Westworld, so we can't be sure of anything.

In previous episodes, it was shown that the LeMat was adapted to take .38 Short cartridges in the cylinder. I suppose that could be done, using something like a Kirst converter and a new .38 barrel (to replace the original .44 barrel). But making the central shotgun barrel breechloading would be a problem. The MiB was shown reloading the cylinder, which involved taking the gun completely apart.

Considering the emphasis on guns (of all kinds) on Westworld, being a gunsmith in their prop department would be a very interesting and challenging job.

 

[whughett]

OK, anybody else here catching the irony of us discussing the plausibility of how a blackpowder revolver can be sabotaged to blow up the hand of an android...?

Hold on here, Ed Harris is an Android? Haven’t started the new season.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Hold on here, Ed Harris is an Android? Haven’t started the new season.

Well, in the original movie the "Man in Black", played by Yul Brynner, was an android so I just figured it was the same in the TV show..?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Nope, he's a human. Just a nasty one.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Nope, he's a human. Just a nasty one.

Ah, serves me right for thinking the show was like the movie.
My mistake...

 

[whughett]

Ah, serves me right for thinking the show was like the movie.
My mistake...

Way off topic, but the only reference to the movie that caught my eye was a micro second frame of the original MIB standing motionless upright against a wall in the repair shop.

 

[Hertzer]

Absolutely think they are intriguing. Wonder how effective the shotgun barrel really is though. I’ve seen some people claim the 12” barrels of the Howdah are useless for anything but fun. And fun is fine but I typically prefer more practical or utilitarian.

Please remember that the Howdah was intended for extremely close range personal defense against large dangerous critters(tigers, lions, etc) they were never really meant for ranges much farther than elephant back to the ground or closer. Oh and I agree with you I also prefer a practical as well as a fun use for most handguns.

 

[rodwha]

Please remember that the Howdah was intended for extremely close range personal defense against large dangerous critters(tigers, lions, etc) they were never really meant for ranges much farther than elephant back to the ground or closer. Oh and I agree with you I also prefer a practical as well as a fun use for most handguns.

Which begged the question of what was actually used to protect yourself from a tiger.

 

[AlexanderA]

A cartridge Howdah pistol also figured prominently on Westworld this season. (It was used to kill a robotic tiger.) That show is a cornucopia of all sorts of guns.

 

[Hertzer]

Which begged the question of what was actually used to protect yourself from a tiger.

LOL I'd say be smart enough not be where where an angry tiger might be. Solve the problem for the tiger as well as myself