How effective are military arms/ammunition against dangerous animals?

[WVGunman]

This question is based on a specific situation. In the movie "Annihilation" a small squad of 5 female soldiers/scientists is sent into this weird, dome-like thing to see what's inside. At various times they are attacked first by a large alligator, and then a crazy mutated bear with a face like a human skull (I still have nightmares about that thing). In both cases they handle these critters with full-auto fire from what appears to be M4s. It looks like it takes about half a magazine to kill each animal. The alligator charges with its mouth open wide, and the shooter is firing right down the animal's open gullet. In the bear's case, the shooter is about 10 feet away firing from the side, and it shows most of the rounds traversing the entire width of the animal and going out the other side. It appears that at least one round goes through the animal's head and that does it in, but it's a bit unclear.
Is any of this realistic? Would an M4 on full-auto (or any gun in 5.56) have killing power out of proportion to the individual rounds? Could (presumably) FMJ 5.56 penetrate as portrayed, even a notoriously tough animal like an alligator?
BTW, "Annihilation" was a pretty good movie, but a serious mind bender.

 

[mcb]

"Swamp People" (the show) killed a lot alligators at close range with 22LR and 22 WMR. There are several document case of people protection themselves (often killing) with 9mm handguns against various Ursus.

A mag dump from a 5.56x45 NATO at close range (especiall with M855(A1) or M955 ammo) is going to do bad thing to just about anything that walks this planet.

 

[WVGunman]

"Swamp People" (the show) killed a lot alligators at close range with 22LR and 22 WMR. There are several document case of people protection themselves (often killing) with 9mm handguns against various Ursus.

A mag dump from a 5.56x45 NATO at close range (especiall with M855(A1) or M955 ammo) is going to do bad thing to just about anything that walks this planet.

Would it have the type of sledgehammer effect of, say a round or two of .458 Winchester, though? The animals appeared to be stopped in their tracks. I have no doubt any animal would die, but would a bunch of 5.56 rounds stop a charging animal?

 

[Riomouse911]

First off: Hollywood is Hollywood. Almost nothing that occurs onscreen that involves firearms is realistic. People don’t fly backwards 12 feet when shot with handguns, people with Colt Peacemakers don’t shoot 20-30-40 rounds (or more) in every firefight, Cops would be writing thousands of pages of reports after being involved in one-tenth of the gunplay and car chases that any cop movie has, and far fewer cars explode annually in real life in the entire States of Texas and California than in one 6 minute Michael Cameron movie trailer.

It’s all fantasy...but sadly much of America gets their info and their belief set from the movie/TV media

Now, will a .223 kill an alligator? Yup. The guys on Swamp people kill them all day long with .22 LR and .22 mag shots to the head. A .223 would be overkill for their use.

 

[Bfh_auto]

This question is based on a specific situation. In the movie "Annihilation" a small squad of 5 female soldiers/scientists is sent into this weird, dome-like thing to see what's inside. At various times they are attacked first by a large alligator, and then a crazy mutated bear with a face like a human skull (I still have nightmares about that thing). In both cases they handle these critters with full-auto fire from what appears to be M4s. It looks like it takes about half a magazine to kill each animal. The alligator charges with its mouth open wide, and the shooter is firing right down the animal's open gullet. In the bear's case, the shooter is about 10 feet away firing from the side, and it shows most of the rounds traversing the entire width of the animal and going out the other side. It appears that at least one round goes through the animal's head and that does it in, but it's a bit unclear.
Is any of this realistic? Would an M4 on full-auto (or any gun in 5.56) have killing power out of proportion to the individual rounds? Could (presumably) FMJ 5.56 penetrate as portrayed, even a notoriously tough animal like an alligator?
BTW, "Annihilation" was a pretty good movie, but a serious mind bender.

There is an account of a canaCana Indian school teacher killing a bear with a lever action 22lr. The last shot was point blank into the bears mouth. It was in an old book of survival stories.
I don't think it would be my choice, but it would beat the fire out of a 22lr.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Poachers in Africa kill elephants with 7.62x39 AK47s. Spray n pray can work...

 

[entropy]

.303 and 7.62x54R have killed a lot of moose and bear (and Moose and Squirrel) in the north.

 

[jmr40]

Native people in Alaska seem pretty confident with 5.56 FMJ military ammo for both Polar and Grizzly bear protection. Phil Shoemaker, an Alaskan bear hunting and fishing guide says a 9mm pistol properly loaded is enough to stop a large male brown bear. And he proved it about a year ago when one attacked a client.

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

For many years the worlds record Grizzly was taken with a 22 rifle by a young Canadian girl out picking blueberries. That was back in the 1950's and the record has been surpassed.

 

[RedlegRick]

.303 and 7.62x54R have killed a lot of moose and bear (and Moose and Squirrel) in the north.

Fearless Leader is inconsolable.

 

[hso]

most of the rounds traversing the entire width of the animal and going out the other side.

For that to be 5.56 the "bear" would have to be tissue paper.

 

[FL-NC]

Gators are routinely killed here with rimfire rounds. Hogs are put down regularly with 5.56 ball. Black bear guides in Maine use 45 autos to put down wounded bears, but I think they use HP ammo. I wouldn't try this with "real" dangerous critter somewhere like Africa, unless it was a situation I found myself in with no hope of getting out. The locals there advised us to use flares in the event of lions, leopards, etc. to scare them off. They had G3's with ball ammo, and considered them a last resort weapon for their dangerous critters.

 

[mcb]

For that to be 5.56 the "bear" would have to be tissue paper.

Probably not, remember we are talking about military FMJ, which is very likely M855 or M855A1 or a distant second M955. All of these round have at least partial cores that are significantly harder than copper and lead. M855 is notorious for "ice picking" its way through targets. I think it would take a moderate size bear to have a chance of stop all the rounds from a mag dump of M855 and it would take a pretty large bear to stop M955 with its tungsten core.

 

[herrwalther]

In Thor Ragnarok, Scourge uses 2 M16s on full auto to shoot up zombie Asgardian warriors. Nothing about the firing is even remotely accurate, including the damage done to the undead. Easiest job you can have in Hollywood is being a firearm technical consultant. Because no one listens to that guy anyway.

 

[Walkalong]

How effective? Shoot enough holes in the right places and things die. (I assume this holds true for fantasy animals as well)

Is FMJ as effective as good expanding ammo? Nope, still don't want to be shot full of FMJ holes.

 

[Slamfire]

What you are doing by firing a bullet into a animal, is poking holes in that animal. If these holes cause sufficient blood loss, the animal brain will stop functioning and the animal will die. If the animal lives and breathes, if you make it bleed enough, it will stop breathing.

If movies were totally factual, they would be pretty boring. Monsters must be difficult to kill, must threaten the lives of the main characters, or it would not be entertaining.

 

[hso]

it would take a pretty large bear

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

If 12g slugs are considered military small arms then I would say yes, it should take care of just about anything with 4 legs on the planet.

You can keep the 223/5.56....I'll take the slugs.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

To kill alligators with a .22 LR or .22 WMR, the Swamp People hunters* rely on hitting the quarter-sized soft spot behind the skull where the connection between the brain and spine is located. In a few early episodes they explained that. They have had injuries to hunters hitting the fully armored part of the skull and the bullet or fragments ricocheting at close range.

If you have a surgeon's knowledge of large beast anatomy and can take a careful stalking shot, you can kill surprisingly large beasts with relatively low power bullets. Now if I were going into the woods with the possibility of a dangerous animal attack, I would pick my Type 53 Mosin 7.62x54R or my 12ga double coach gun rather than my sister's AR carbine (what I call an M4gery). If a dangerous animal attacks, first shot may be all you get and you would be lucky to stay aligned on center-of-mass, no time to play brain surgeon.

Multiple hits having a greater lethal effect than expected based on the power of the individual bullet is the theory that explains the effectiveness of buckshot from a shotgun. Multiple hits within a second also appears to be the combat justification for the pistol caliber submachine gun and the intermediate caliber assault rifle (real full-auto or burst fire).

The idea of a bullet from M4 penetrating the width of a large bear does strain my willing suspension of disbelief (a requirement for a fantasy/horror/science fiction to work). 5.56mm 62gr bullet at 2900 fps -- quick energy dump but much less penetration and you don't quickly kill giant mutant alligators and bears with multiple flesh wounds. If you want deep penetration, a 6.5mm 160 gr bullet at 2000 to 2100 fps will do it. At faster velocity and lighter bullet, the bullet deforms too much.

____________________
* I think technically alligator "hunting" falls under fishing regulations.

 

[Walkalong]

The first lady failed to fire effectively like the second one did.

 

[2zulu1]

From my father, 101st Airborne ETO, after the German surrender he and a friend went wild boar hunting in Bavaria (they slept at Berchtesgaden for a few days) with their Garands loaded with armor piercing '30-06, assuming they understood shot placement, a boar charged them after being hit head on from an AP round. Also, 3-4 round bursts from a Thompson typically killed German soldiers on the spot.
I've investigated a suicide where one round from a 22lr pistol to the head, good shot placement, did not kill and a second round did kill the victim; then there was a homicide in .32 H&R that only needed one shot.
In the end...it depends.

 

[hdwhit]

WVGunman wrote:
In the movie "Annihilation" a small squad of 5 female soldiers/scientists is sent into this weird, dome-like thing to see what's inside. At various times they are attacked first by a large alligator, and then a crazy mutated bear with a face like a human skull (I still have nightmares about that thing). In both cases they handle these critters with full-auto fire from what appears to be M4s.

Are you really equating a motion picture with reality?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

^ No, he's asking if the movie gun use remotely relates to reality.

 

[MedWheeler]

I'm surprised no one brought up the Zanesville incident.

Though bullet types are not discussed, hundreds of rounds of .223 are used on dangerous animals, and much of the ammunition is reloaded stock donated to police when they run low on their own. Round for round, the .223 comes across as woefully ineffective in this case, at least against the biggest cats.

https://americanhandgunner.com/lions-and-tigers-and-bears-for-real/

After seeing the .223 bullets had little effect on the massive skulls of the tigers and the grizzly bears, the deputies’ strategy became massed barrages of fire aimed at the chest. Once the animals were down, they shot them a few more times — partly to assure humane destruction, partly to keep them from getting back up.

Still at large was one of the bigger Bengal tigers. The preceding night had taught the officers the great cats were tough. Ryan Williams estimated they were putting an average of 30 .223 rounds into the lions to keep them down. Tigers run bigger than lions.

 

[WestKentucky]

7.62x39 is probably the most popular military round in the world. In the AK47 it is quite potent, and is the favored weapon for African dangerous game poachers. That’s the most dangerous game on the planet, and the favored weapon for such game. I think the movie might have gotten it kinda right. Full auto from anything is gonna be devastating if the shooter can land repeated hits.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I just wish to point out Annihilation was a very good movie. They had no idea what was in there since no one who went in came back out. So they armed up with guns and when trouble popped up they shot the things a lot, a whole lot. Enough 5.56 will get the job done. Its certainly not ideal or efficient and ethical hunting doesn't enter into it. But while watching the movie I did not find it ridiculous.