How heavily does military contract effect the civilian market

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WestKentucky

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It's safe to say that many former (and current) designs have beome classic, iconic weapons which have either been birthed into this world through military design (or hopes for a contract) and their adoption has gained them a few fans. There are too many examples to list so I will name only a few. Handguns-SAA, 1911, beretta 92. Rifle-AR, Mauser, Springfield 1903, sharps carbine. Each of these and many others have served in various armed forces, and are now well known and generally well liked platforms, but without military contract and the subsequent use from servicemen would these platforms have gained their current reputations, followings, or would they even have been built in the first place?

A few very important weapons were competitors, so consider their effects. Schofield vs SAA without military contract. Price points and such, are either mass produced, are either successful? Mini14 vs AR...would the plastic toy gun image have been too much to overcome the wood and blue mini? Most notably where would the 1911, one of the worlds most copied guns, sit today if it weren't for a couple world wars and a long running military contract taking it to places like Korea, Europe, the Pacific...would it have remained king or would the hand-ejector have stayed on top?
 
Weapons produced for the "military" usually have an edge, since they're produced in such high numbers, and at the end of the conflict, many of them are sold on the "surplus" market, squeezing purpose-built civilian designs.

When WWII ended, there were millions of 98-design Mausers that came home with GI's, or appeared in the surplus arena. They were re chambered, and "customized", at a cost less than that of a new Winchester or Remington. The Springfield 03, and the Remington/S-C 03-A3 both made their way to the civilian market when surpassed by the Garand. The action makes a great conversion, and un-rechambered, the .30-06 is available everywhere.

Millions of 1911 pistols survived both the Great War and WWII, and many of those ended up in the civilian market much less expensive than commercially produced Colts. Now, whether they could hit the broad side of a barn with a loosey-goosey 1911 was something else.

There's also the reverse. When the U.S. couldn't produce enough 1911's in the Great War, Colt and S&W both modified existing revolvers to chamber .45 ACP, and those were later sold on the surplus market. The Colt New Service languished because the U.S. Army adopted the 1911, making the New Service in .45 Colt, instantly obsolete. It got a second life when adopted as the Model 1917.

There's also the aura of the durability of the produced-for-the-military weapon. M1 Garands are brutally tough; over-engineered to last through combat. However, a civilian version probably wouldn't need all the excess wood and metal the military required. And there's also the nostalgia factor. People want/wanted the rifle of the "Greatest Generation".

The Mauser 98 was a great design, military needs aside. It's still the basis for many commercial rifles, and simply hasn't been surpassed. Lot's of high-pressure, magnum cartridges have been chambered in a 116-year-old design, as well as standard chamberings. Hard to beat the design.

The AR platform was well along in its design and improvement when the Mini 14 was introduced. While the Mini 14 has developed a following, the AR platforms really rule the roost. The "look" has a lot to do with the acceptance, and companies have made billions in add-ons alone. Never mind the customization of the platform with caliber changes, and system improvements. A lot of those civilian improvements have "back flowed" to the military. Sights, ergonomic changes in stocks, etc. all started out in the civilian market.

The Beretta 92 platform was mature when it was adopted by the U.S. military. That, in itself gives it cachet with the civilian market.

There is also the Thompson SMG. It came along too late to be used in the Great War. However, it was marketed to civilians, and it developed a reputation in part, because of the Prohibition crime surge. It's original purpose did get re-ignited when the military needed a SMG during WWII, and the design was modified to make it more usable for combat.

As the modern battle rifle has evolved, only the AR15 has evolved in mass numbers. The M14/M1A platform has a relatively small following, but has also been revived in the military. It wasn't in use long enough to provide penetration into the civilian market in the numbers that the M1 Garand has. It was also originally a selector-fired rifle, and that made it nearly impossible to purchase in the surplus market.

The Colt SAA-S&W #3 is an odd rivalry. While the S&W had some tactical advantages, such as fast reloading, the politics of the Army's procurement operations made the difference. Major Schofield got a small royalty on the guns sold to the Army (conflict of interest). And S&W probably grew tired of paying the Major. There were also reports that got back to the Ordnance Bureau that stated that the S&W wasn't as sturdy, owing to its top break design and ratcheting system. There was also the issue of ammunition interchangeability. You could chamber .45 Schofield in your SAA, but not the reverse. You could see a lot of S&W #3's on the "frontier", and they were popular. Most people carried them a lot, and shot them little. So, not as many wear problems. But the SAA was what the Army used, and I'm sure a lot of folks bought SAA's because of that. I've read stories (anecdotal), that the Army would supply .45 Colt ammo, as well as .45-70 rifle ammo to buffalo hunters. The .45-70 cartridge was an effective cartridge on bison. The politics of supplying ammo to bison hunters is another story in itself.

It's a great discussion, and sometimes evolves into "chicken v. egg".
 
What the military and well-known law enforcement agencies issue has a huge impact on the consumer market. But I don't think it's because of large scale production lowering prices. It's mostly because people want to own what the "professionals" use. Partially because they assume it must be high quality if the pros use it and lets not underestimate the cool factor. When the military switched to the Beretta in the late 1980s it was then used in movies like Die Hard and Lethal Weapon which turned the Beretta 9mm into an icon and made people want to own it as well. When law enforcement and FBI switched to Glocks it led to them becoming very popular among individuals as well. Seeing soldiers on TV every night in Afghanistan and Iraq has helped make the AR rifles the most popular in the civilian market as well.
 
Before the military adopts a gun, there is usually a competitive process. Besides price, this involves comprehensive testing versus the competition. Adoption places a stamp of approval on the design that is also taken into account by civilian shooters.

Thousands of veterans become familiar with the gun through their military service. There is also a "multiplier effect" of this when the gun is seen often in the media and in the movies.

Military designs are used in shooting sports, such as the Camp Perry matches.
 
Military blazes the trail, civilians pave it. Every major technological weaponry advance was funded by the military, but they were only perfected by picky consumer demands.

TCB
 
Name a major recent caliber that was a success that was not a military caliber. I'd say 30-30 as a guess and that was a long time ago. Pistol is a little different but the two big winners right now are still .45 and 9mm.
 
Name a major recent caliber that was a success that was not a military caliber. I'd say 30-30 as a guess and that was a long time ago. Pistol is a little different but the two big winners right now are still .45 and 9mm.
  • The S&W .38 Special for their K frame M&P revolver.
  • The S&W (Winchester) .357 Magnum for the N frame
  • The S&W (Remington) .44 Magnum for the N frame.
  • The Remington 7mm Magnum.
  • The derivations from the .30-06 - .270, .25-06, .35 Whalen, etc.
  • The derivations from the .308 (7.62 NATO) - .243 Winchester, 7mm-08, etc. **
  • The .44 S&W Special.
  • The .40 S&W
  • The 10mm
  • The Colt .380 ACP (9mm Kurz)
  • The Colt .32 ACP (7.65)
  • The .22 LR, Long, Short

** The 7.62mm NATO has as its basis the .300 Savage, which was a very popular hunting cartridge, but considered in its civilian form, not sufficient for military use.
While some of the above may not be wildly popular, they each have had a nice following.
 
As for firearms, the big successes that were not military include the lever actions - typically the Winchester 94, the Remington 700 and Winchester 70, and all the .22's, like the Ruger 10/22.

The military doesn't always adopt a winner, either. Consider the most recent flop, that was modified and then obsoleted, and it's replacement didn't last as long: The M1 Garand and M14. Previous other failures included the Chauchat, Reising, Japanese type 94 pistol, and the Swiss MP 41/44, which was so complicated only the unit armorer was allowed to take it down for cleaning.

Just because someone served with the gun doesn't qualify as a good reason for it to be a great design, tho. What usually happens is that emotion overrides logic beyond reason, and the flaws are all easily dismissed out of fondness for it's looks. What is extremely interesting is that many who consider the M16 to be a complete mechanical failure are fans of the Garand and M14 - which has more serious flaws. Case in point, what makes a military gun become popular often has little to do with it's actual abilities. Those who survive the conflict often keep quiet about the flaws in the gun because they got around it - or never actually had to rely on it. As 90% of the armed forces are usually support, not combat, it skews the perception of what the few others are doing with the gun in the field. All they really see and hear are the final score, we won. So, the gun must have been superior compared to theirs.

Taking that later in life, they celebrate their youth by purchasing one of those weapons, which is often at that point being superceded and sold off as surplus. Now they can own an actual gov't version of the gun they served with.

That chain no longer exists, tho, the M14 never made it to the public, and the M16 can only be purchased as a kit, not complete. The 1911 exists more in the aftermarket than as an actual service issue weapon as a previous administration had them destroyed. What has happened is that the demand from non service members has increased exponentially, and it doesn't necessarily mean they are knowledgeable or experienced in the flaws with the gun. The number of citizens who have served in the Armed Forces has dropped from 1 in 10 in the 1960's to 1 in 100 today. It's NOT the vets who are buying "military" guns anymore - if it ever was, anyway.

What can be said is that it does instantly add a facet to the reputation of the firearm and how it's perceived. That can be good for someone marketing it, and certainly be a reason for the buyer, but with others, it's a huge negative and justification enough to ban it from public ownership, even among 2A supporters.

It doesn't have to be issue at some time to be a seller, and being issue doesn't make it a great gun - but it could sell well regardless.
 
IMHO the availability of boatloads surplus military ammo and reloadable fired bras for reloaders available to civilians has a major impact on what caliber is popular as well. I am sure there would be more 8MM Mauser and 7.62X54R reloaders if the piles of surplus ammo that was shot had been boxer primed brass like the 30-06 and 308.;)
 
Consider the M4 profile barrel, with M203 notch. Why is this 'feature' so common on civilian carbines?
 
What the military and well-known law enforcement agencies issue has a huge impact on the consumer market. But I don't think it's because of large scale production lowering prices. It's mostly because people want to own what the "professionals" use. Partially because they assume it must be high quality if the pros use it and lets not underestimate the cool factor. When the military switched to the Beretta in the late 1980s it was then used in movies like Die Hard and Lethal Weapon which turned the Beretta 9mm into an icon and made people want to own it as well. When law enforcement and FBI switched to Glocks it led to them becoming very popular among individuals as well. Seeing soldiers on TV every night in Afghanistan and Iraq has helped make the AR rifles the most popular in the civilian market as well.
Yes and it is mainly left over from playing cowboys and Indians as kids. Grown men and I use that loosely want the rifles used in the most current war like they used toy guns. If the army goes to a new rifle the AR 15 will be tossed to the side by its beloved disciples and end up in barrels selling for 200 bucks
 
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