How important is pointing?

[Great Scot]

I own a lot of handguns of various calibers. I’ve noticed that my Walther PPK points best for me. I also realize that’s it’s a low capacity, marginal caliber design dating back to 1929. My question is how important is the pistols ability to naturally point for you when considering a self defense gun? Thanks.

 

[troy fairweather]

i am no where near a expert with handguns, but i think the way the gun points is one of the most important part with shooting. my dad taught me to point and shoot at close ranges, don't even use the sights. you will be surprised how accurate you are. dads test was look at something pull up and then look at your sights. you should be right on. pointing is important.

 

[Drail]

Natural pointing guns are crucial for fast shooting. On a range you can take the time to adjust but for self defense the gun needs to come up to your sight line quickly. While I think with enough practice you could learn to point any handgun - some will be easier and faster than others for your hand, wrists and shooting technique because of their grip to bore angle. Like troy said above - close your eyes and then bring the gun up to where you think your sight line is. When you open your eyes it should be very close to the target if it points naturally for you. If your sights are too high or too low when you open your eyes then you'll have to learn to compensate for that gun (even if it points perfectly for your buddy).

 

[FL-NC]

IMO, you can train to proficiency with just about anything. Transitioning from a M9 to a Glock took a while for me, but now a Glock feels "normal" and everything else feels "off". This is most evident for me from the holster into immediate engagement, where it matters most.

 

[JohnKSa]

As mentioned, you can probably get used to most guns with practice. Or you can go around trying guns that meet your other requirements to see if they work well for you.

Early in my shooting career, I found a make/model of pistol that pointed very naturally for me--before I had shot/practiced enough to get used to anything. I've been able to find other guns that also work for me--especially now that there is such a huge variety available.

A gun that points naturally for you (or one that you've worked with long enough to get used to) will tend to come up on target easily. The sights will tend to be pretty well aligned so that you can just get the gun where it needs to be and pull the trigger. It makes it faster to get hits, and it makes it more likely that the hits will be good.

Also, recoil recovery will be a little faster--the sights will tend to track back on target better.

 

[JR24]

How a gun points, as noted, is really useful for fast shooting and "point shooting" (without using sights) at close range, both potentially critical skills in a SD situation.

Natural pointer? Depends on how much you plan to practice. As noted it's all about repetition to make something point for you.

So, many will just find one that works right away and stick with that, and that's a valid option, but anything can be made to work with some practice.

For example, I started with 1911s and hated the Glock "grip angle" (really it's the backstrap palm swell) for years, always pointed high, didnt shoot well, yuck. The I stumbled into one on a trade and decided to learn to shoot it well. Many years and Glocks later they are probably my second best pointing platform behind the 1911.

I can pick up either cold and be right on immediately, but those are basically the only platforms I've shot in 10 years, so I'd expect that.

 

[IdaD]

I think its something you can train around with most guns. I don't own any Glocks and part of that is they just don't point well for me, but I'm sure if I bought one and trained with it enough I could be just as proficient with it as any other handgun.

 

[Jack B.]

I have an LCR with a Crimson Trace Laser grip. Practicing with that gun has taught me how to point and shoot accurately. With lasers you don't aim you just point till the dot is where you want it. Went I practice with this gun I also practice with a 1911 45ACP without a laser. I don't aim the 45 anymore. I found I'm very accurate just pointing it and I can get off more rounds faster. Don't know if practicing with the laser made me better with just pointing a handgun. But it all seems to have come along at about the same time.

 

[Drail]

One should not have to train to overcome a handgun that does not point naturally for you.

 

[GRIZ22]

Some guns point better than others but I think you can learn to point shoot any gun well. The more you try different guns the easier it is.

 

[WheelGunMan]

I think your Walther PPK is a keeper. Any gun that points better over others is filling your hand just right. Shooting it a lot will underscore that!

 

[Zerodefect]

A proper grip doesn't point, or feel natural at all. Until you get used to it and your muscles are stretched out to it. Used to be uncomfortable torture to me, now it's second nature. I think it was about 10 000 rounds until I had it down.

Make sure you have a proper grip before judging the pistol. It's not really a comfort thing, but more of a ''can I get my hand up high, and where it needs to be''.

 

[bannockburn]

Great Scot

My question is how important is the pistols ability to naturally point for you when considering a self defense gun?

For me it's pretty important. There's a number of pistols, like the Browning Hi-Power, CZ P01, CZ P07, Colt Commander, and Ruger SR9c, that are all natural pointers to me. They all possess great ergonomics and feel very comfortable in my hand and it's almost instinctive how quickly and easily I can bring the sights on target with these guns.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

How a gun naturally points for me is pretty important as it translates to faster target acquisition. Any less than optimal natural pointing characteristics can be overcome with practice, but given the wide variety of guns and aftermarket modifications out there, I see no reason not to buy what works for me.

The best example I have is my Ruger SP101. The factory grip was too small. So I got Badger grips. They changed the grip angle where I felt like I had my wrist cranked way lower than is natural. So then I got some custom grips from Tim's Workshop. The angle was correct but the grips were thinner than I needed.

After that I almost gave up as I was getting sick of spending money on a gun that maybe just wasn't going to suite me. Fortunately Pachmayr came out with a laminate grip that is at the proper angle, fills my hand, and finally makes that gun naturally point for me.

 

[Thomas Mayberry]

A natural pointing gun is very important to me. With practice I can adapt to grip angle but an oversized grip that causes the muzzle to oriented to the side is a deal breaker.

 

[labnoti]

"Pointing" is just so much voodoo. Try to define what you're really talking about or this is meaningless mumbo jumbo. The three criteria I can think of are bore-axis height, alignment index, and grip angle. I won't claim that a particular specification for any of these is necessary for the gun to be effectively point-shot -- a lot of that has to do with how well a person's proprioception is developed through talent and practice with a given gun. But it seems to me that if the bore-axis height or alignment index is far off, it's going to be awkward and less natural to point it. If I had to guess, I'd say the alignment index is probably more important simply because the differences in bore height aren't extreme until you start talking AR pistols or something like that. As for grip angle, it's going to make a difference in the angle the wrist must be broken at, but that would seem to be something easier to adapt with a little practice.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

LOL, pointing is pretty much spot on. You can explain it with a lot of technical mumbo jumbo, but for a lot of folks how well the gun just points for them is very critical to their shooting.

 

[ATLDave]

In speed-based competition shooting, people usually use the term "index" to mean the ability to look at a target, and then have the gun appear with the sights already generally aligned and either ready to go or nearly so. Developing a good index is considered a critical skill.

As others have noted, for any particular gun, it is an acquirable skill. It can be difficult or impossible for people to maintain a good index with two different guns at the same time. Different grip angles and other geometry (degree of undercut of the trigger guard, where the beavertail stands in relation to the sights, etc.) all matter.

Developing a good index with a different gun is just a matter of a few thousand dry-fire draws! If you want to make another gun better "pointing" for you, you just have to do the work. There's not much immutable about this. If you know some other gun would be better for your purposes, then saying another sub-optimal gun "points better" is sort of an excuse for laziness.

Which is fine. We could all do more work on all kinds of things. You just need to be honest with yourself about what you're doing.

 

[Tallball]

Some guns point better than others but I think you can learn to point shoot any gun well. The more you try different guns the easier it is.

I feel the same way. I am not an expert marksman with any handgun, but I've practiced with so many different ones that I can pick up just about anything and make it work for me within a couple of minutes.

That being said, there are some handguns that I shoot better than most, and some that I'm never better than "okay" with.

I prefer my HD and CC handguns to be in the first category.

 

[buck460XVR]

One can learn with practice, to shoot any gun with reasonable accuracy, reasonably accurately. One only has to look at folks that compete regularly with shotguns, to see how important gun fit and how it points naturally to the individual, is.

One thing I have noticed by introducing new folks to firearms at my range is, those guns that feel best to them in their hands are the ones they want to shoot again. By the end of the day, those are the guns they shoot the best, because they have shot them the most. This is probably true of most gun owners.

 

[Dave T]

My first handgun was a Ruger Single Six. My second, third and fourth handguns were Ruger Blackhawks. They seemed to point well. Then I entered the academy and was shooting a S&W M28. After a while it seemed to point well. Once off probation I qualified with a Colt Government Model (45 ACP of course) and soon it seemed to point well. After retiring from law enforcement I continued to carry one form of 1911 or other and they pointed even better.

When arthritis swelled the base thumb knuckle of my shooting hand and the 1911 frame started pounding it with each shot, I switched to Glock 45s. Soon they seemed to point well. Now that I'm getting old the arthritis is worse and I struggle to manipulate the slide on most any semi auto, I'm going back to S&W revolvers. With practice (mostly dry firing) they seem to be pointing well.

Lesson to be learned from all this? We humans are adaptable. Ya just have to work at it.

Dave

PS: My avatar is of a USFA single action revolver. With practice they seem to point well too. (smile)

 

[JeffG]

I own a lot of handguns of various calibers. I’ve noticed that my Walther PPK points best for me. I also realize that’s it’s a low capacity, marginal caliber design dating back to 1929. My question is how important is the pistols ability to naturally point for you when considering a self defense gun? Thanks.

Your "natural point of aim" is very imprtant to any carry gun. The last thing you will be looking for when the guy with the chainsaw and hockey mask comes around the corner, is your sights. Being able to make hits like"watering the flowers" is an important function of a handgun.

 

[bassjam]

It’s becoming an echo chamber in here, but yeah, “pointing” is pretty important, at least with a self defense firearm.

My first handgun was a Glock. I never shot it that well to begin with, but I noticed as I acquired other handguns and began shooting them more often, whenever I picked up that Glock I’d be looking though the rear sights and only see the top of the slide instead of my front sight, because that steeper grip angle didn’t match my other guns so the Glock no longer pointed naturally for me. It had been my nightstand gun, but once I realized it no longer fit my muscle memory it went back into the safe and was eventually sold.

I had a similar issue with an SP101. I was used to carrying j-frames and they worked well for me. But when I tried out an SP101 for some reason it always pointed high. I probably could have addressed that with aftermarket grips, but I decided the SP wasn’t for me.

Oddly enough, I don’t notice the issue with my Ruger Mark I. I suspect it’s because when I’m shooting it I’m not training with the mindset of self-defense, it’s purely a target pistol so I’m taking more time to raise the gun and align the sights.

 

[joneb]

I picked up that Glock I’d be looking though the rear sights and only see the top of the slide instead of my front sight, because that steeper grip angle didn’t match my other guns

Same here, I had a G19 and 17 got rid of them for that reason.
https://www.amazon.com/TALON-998R-G...WP5EQ35N1AE&psc=1&refRID=8QAFT1N8GWP5EQ35N1AE This stuff can be used to make minor adjustments to the grip, if applied to the upper part of the back strap the gun will point lower. This grip tape is stackable.

 

[CDR_Glock]

A gun that points naturally is a keeper, especially for SD scenarios. So that is a keeper.

Everyone is built differently so how it fits into one person’s hands will not ring true for another person. I find S&W M&P, Glock, S&W 640/442, Kimber K6S, CZ, S&W revolvers, P365, and Ruger Redhawk/GP100 revolvers/Mark Series fit me well. The Ed Brown 1911 commander size fit me perfectly, as well.

My FN Five Seven, Desert Eagle 44 Magnum, and Walther PPK/S do not, but they’re not for SD.

Other pistols I have owned that didn’t fit me well were the Beretta Nano, 92FS, Beretta PX4, Springfield XD/XDM, Ruger LCR, and HK 45C/Mark23/USP.

But of all of these that work one handed are Glock, Kimber K6S and S&W 442/640.