I've had some limited experience with four criminal, felony-related cases in the past and I'm having a hard time making a connection between that experience and what might happen in a potential self-defense case. I'm hoping someone can point out what I'm missing.
We've all heard the pitches for self-defense insurance or concealed carry insurance or whatever you want to call it. The common theme is always that a self-defense case is going to cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. Lawyers tell us this, and so do people that describe going through a trial. So it seems credible that it really will cost a fortune.
Where do you find lawyers that are worth that? I mean, we don't pay lawyers based on how much we want to stay out of prison. We pay them based on the value of their work. To pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars, one would expect first of all that they're good at what they do and that they work many hundreds of hours and even have other staff working around the clock on our case. Who the heck are these lawyers that are so darn gold-plated? Where do they come from?
My experience with criminal defense attorneys that I mentioned is when one was needed, they were sought from the available local attorneys. In one case, it was a county outside a major city. The county seat was like 140,000. There were perhaps a dozen practices that were active in that county, but maybe only 1/3rd worked criminal cases. Most attorneys can make more money handling accident/injury cases, family law (divorces), corporate law, or just doing trusts and estate planning, so only a small portion of the total is willing to take criminal cases. Yes there are a lot of criminal cases, but I would bet the overwhelming majority of felony cases (not just DUI's and misdemanor possession) are handled by public defenders. So in this case, the defendants were OR'd and a couple of attorneys were found (was two defendants). They each took something like $1600 to $2000 (1990's money) to represent their client at the arraignment where they entered pleas of no contest. One of the attorneys had one big murder case with a trial in his entire career. I'm sure if these guys went to trial, they could rack up a lot more hours and what, maybe thirty or sixty thousand dollars. They had nothing that would ever make them worth $500,000 without more than 3 years worth of work.
Ok, so next case was another rural county. The county seat was about 5000 people. This county was small enough that an attorney was brought in from the next county over where the seat was 50,000. Guy was experienced and was campaigning for a seat as a judge. He took $3000 for the arraignment to put in a guilty plea. The case had some merit for a trial. It was a felon-in-possession firearm case, but the prior felony was actually a "wobbler" (possession of stolen property) and the defendant had not gone to prison, so it could have been argued the prior was a misdemeanor. The attorney decided it wasn't worth his while. He didn't even show up to enter a plea, but sent his assistant, recent law-school graduate. He went on to lose his campaign for judge. I can't see that loser being worth $500,000 in any trial.
Next case was a probation violation. The attorney took $2500 (21st Century money now) to negotiate a deal for community service. Again, a small-time lawyer from a very limited pool of local resources.
Last case was in the same county where the seat was 140,000. But this time out of county attorneys were sought out. The case was pitched to any of the firms in the big state capitol that advertised criminal practice. Not one of them was willing to take it. Not at any price. They simply couldn't be bothered to drive three-hours across a couple county lines. Firms in another big metro area in the state were also solicited. It would have been an air-travel deal. They all declined upfront without even talking price. A local, fresh graduate from a hotshot law school with zero experience took it and did it for dirt cheap.
I live in a different state than those cases but also in a rural area. I don't have any legal needs at the moment, but looking at the pool of local attorneys, they have no big trial experience. The only thing they've ever done is DUI's and possession of meth or weed and they just do plea bargains. There's been two somewhat big murder cases in the county in the last 15 years. One of them has yet to go to trial after years. The other one is going to be tried in another city three counties over because the defendant killed someone there too. Both will be public defender deals and they're basically open and shut with detailed confessions.
So suppose I was in a self-defense incident and found myself without prosecutorial favor. There are certainly no local attorneys for the two nearest counties that are worth super-high legal fees. Whether I had insurance or not, the only way I can see gaining any advantage with big money for a defense whether I paid for it cash or through one of these insurance programs is if the attorneys were willing to relocate or travel. Think about that. Most of the big-dollar lawyers are going to be in geographic areas where big-dollar cases happen regularly enough they can maintain their big-dollar practices. To get them to relocate or travel to wherever you might be is a piss poor value. Yeah, you might have to pay huge travel expenses, but what you're actually getting in terms of the value of legal representation is uncertain. Businesswise, those hot shot lawyers are better off waiting for a case to pop up in the market where they've set themselves up. They'll screw you for any inconvenience and you'll be their last priority.
So I was watching this video of a discussion of concealed carry insurance:
Two things that strike me is the reinforcement of the idea that a legal defense is going to cost you some immense amount of money -- probably many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars -- but no discussion of why it costs so much -- just that you'll be willing to pay it all to stay out of prison. (W-T-F?)
Then at 22:57, the lawyer explains that "you need to have confidence in this person [your attorney] that they're fully committed to your case, every single day of that period and that they're not just going through the motions. And I'm sad to say there are a lot of criminal defense attorneys out there who go through the motions. I mean they're not really committed to those cases. They take your retainer, they crank the handle, they do the minimal amount of work they have to do and if you get convicted, they're not going to prison."
He goes on to recommend against insurance policies that provide you with their own attorneys because they have an incentive to provide cheaper attorneys. He also advises against policies that only reimburse you if you're acquitted. And finally, he advises against policies that are more like pre-paid legal plans where a network of lawyers have negotiated flat-fees but can decline cases that will demand more than the plan will pay.
So my question is not about how you pay astronomical legal fees for a really good criminal defense, whether you do it through one of these carry insurance policies or through any other means. How do you find an attorney that could possibly be worth what everyone seems to be saying it's going to cost you? It seems reasonable before you even buy the insurance, to look at that question and try to answer it. Let's say I have $500K or $1M for my legal defense. Now, who do I go to?
We've all heard the pitches for self-defense insurance or concealed carry insurance or whatever you want to call it. The common theme is always that a self-defense case is going to cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. Lawyers tell us this, and so do people that describe going through a trial. So it seems credible that it really will cost a fortune.
Where do you find lawyers that are worth that? I mean, we don't pay lawyers based on how much we want to stay out of prison. We pay them based on the value of their work. To pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars, one would expect first of all that they're good at what they do and that they work many hundreds of hours and even have other staff working around the clock on our case. Who the heck are these lawyers that are so darn gold-plated? Where do they come from?
My experience with criminal defense attorneys that I mentioned is when one was needed, they were sought from the available local attorneys. In one case, it was a county outside a major city. The county seat was like 140,000. There were perhaps a dozen practices that were active in that county, but maybe only 1/3rd worked criminal cases. Most attorneys can make more money handling accident/injury cases, family law (divorces), corporate law, or just doing trusts and estate planning, so only a small portion of the total is willing to take criminal cases. Yes there are a lot of criminal cases, but I would bet the overwhelming majority of felony cases (not just DUI's and misdemanor possession) are handled by public defenders. So in this case, the defendants were OR'd and a couple of attorneys were found (was two defendants). They each took something like $1600 to $2000 (1990's money) to represent their client at the arraignment where they entered pleas of no contest. One of the attorneys had one big murder case with a trial in his entire career. I'm sure if these guys went to trial, they could rack up a lot more hours and what, maybe thirty or sixty thousand dollars. They had nothing that would ever make them worth $500,000 without more than 3 years worth of work.
Ok, so next case was another rural county. The county seat was about 5000 people. This county was small enough that an attorney was brought in from the next county over where the seat was 50,000. Guy was experienced and was campaigning for a seat as a judge. He took $3000 for the arraignment to put in a guilty plea. The case had some merit for a trial. It was a felon-in-possession firearm case, but the prior felony was actually a "wobbler" (possession of stolen property) and the defendant had not gone to prison, so it could have been argued the prior was a misdemeanor. The attorney decided it wasn't worth his while. He didn't even show up to enter a plea, but sent his assistant, recent law-school graduate. He went on to lose his campaign for judge. I can't see that loser being worth $500,000 in any trial.
Next case was a probation violation. The attorney took $2500 (21st Century money now) to negotiate a deal for community service. Again, a small-time lawyer from a very limited pool of local resources.
Last case was in the same county where the seat was 140,000. But this time out of county attorneys were sought out. The case was pitched to any of the firms in the big state capitol that advertised criminal practice. Not one of them was willing to take it. Not at any price. They simply couldn't be bothered to drive three-hours across a couple county lines. Firms in another big metro area in the state were also solicited. It would have been an air-travel deal. They all declined upfront without even talking price. A local, fresh graduate from a hotshot law school with zero experience took it and did it for dirt cheap.
I live in a different state than those cases but also in a rural area. I don't have any legal needs at the moment, but looking at the pool of local attorneys, they have no big trial experience. The only thing they've ever done is DUI's and possession of meth or weed and they just do plea bargains. There's been two somewhat big murder cases in the county in the last 15 years. One of them has yet to go to trial after years. The other one is going to be tried in another city three counties over because the defendant killed someone there too. Both will be public defender deals and they're basically open and shut with detailed confessions.
So suppose I was in a self-defense incident and found myself without prosecutorial favor. There are certainly no local attorneys for the two nearest counties that are worth super-high legal fees. Whether I had insurance or not, the only way I can see gaining any advantage with big money for a defense whether I paid for it cash or through one of these insurance programs is if the attorneys were willing to relocate or travel. Think about that. Most of the big-dollar lawyers are going to be in geographic areas where big-dollar cases happen regularly enough they can maintain their big-dollar practices. To get them to relocate or travel to wherever you might be is a piss poor value. Yeah, you might have to pay huge travel expenses, but what you're actually getting in terms of the value of legal representation is uncertain. Businesswise, those hot shot lawyers are better off waiting for a case to pop up in the market where they've set themselves up. They'll screw you for any inconvenience and you'll be their last priority.
So I was watching this video of a discussion of concealed carry insurance:
Two things that strike me is the reinforcement of the idea that a legal defense is going to cost you some immense amount of money -- probably many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars -- but no discussion of why it costs so much -- just that you'll be willing to pay it all to stay out of prison. (W-T-F?)
Then at 22:57, the lawyer explains that "you need to have confidence in this person [your attorney] that they're fully committed to your case, every single day of that period and that they're not just going through the motions. And I'm sad to say there are a lot of criminal defense attorneys out there who go through the motions. I mean they're not really committed to those cases. They take your retainer, they crank the handle, they do the minimal amount of work they have to do and if you get convicted, they're not going to prison."
He goes on to recommend against insurance policies that provide you with their own attorneys because they have an incentive to provide cheaper attorneys. He also advises against policies that only reimburse you if you're acquitted. And finally, he advises against policies that are more like pre-paid legal plans where a network of lawyers have negotiated flat-fees but can decline cases that will demand more than the plan will pay.
So my question is not about how you pay astronomical legal fees for a really good criminal defense, whether you do it through one of these carry insurance policies or through any other means. How do you find an attorney that could possibly be worth what everyone seems to be saying it's going to cost you? It seems reasonable before you even buy the insurance, to look at that question and try to answer it. Let's say I have $500K or $1M for my legal defense. Now, who do I go to?