lysanderxiii
Member
12 to 15 rounds per minute maximum sustained rate.
How many shots before cooling the barrel?
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cheygriz
member
I use EEZOX or Dri-Slide except on heavy friction points, where high-tech grease is appropriate.
In my 75 years, I've never run a gun "wet" and never will.
In my 75 years, I've never run a gun "wet" and never will.
Run your ar wet. Oil not grease.
The amount of time you wait is situationally dependent. E.g. benchrest shooters often shoot as fast as they can because they want to shoot all their rounds in the same wind condition and their barrels don’t shift much when they heat up.
However the downside is that throat wear will accelerate when you’re firing fast. Your barrel won’t last as long but that just makes competition a more expensive hobby.
Doing a couple mag dumps is not good for extreme accuracy but it won’t keep you from making head shots at 400 yards.
The amount of time you wait is situationally dependent. E.g. benchrest shooters often shoot as fast as they can because they want to shoot all their rounds in the same wind condition and their barrels don’t shift much when they heat up.
However the downside is that throat wear will accelerate when you’re firing fast. Your barrel won’t last as long but that just makes competition a more expensive hobby.
Doing a couple mag dumps is not good for extreme accuracy but it won’t keep you from making head shots at 400 yards.
illinoisburt
Member
I suppose we need to clarify the level of accuracy and distances involved. If you are currently shooting long range for tiny groups, then barrel heating and shot dispersion might be a concern since most guns have point of impact change from clean cold bore to warm fouled bore. In that situation, barrel cooling may be more important when distances stretch out past 300 yards. Wear on the other hande should have zero worry from firing 40 or 50 rounds in a range session. Even with higher per trip counts for 223 and 308 you won't have accuracy reduction for 3000-5000 rounds, and that's only really noticable by the benchrest crowd out 500 to 1000 yards. At under 300, you likely won't see any difference in your group sizes until 8000 to 10000 rounds, which may be a lifetime for your shooting style.
Varminterror
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Fixed it for you.
Good rifles don’t have temperature shifts. Almost any barrel will shift a bit from clean to sustainably fouled, but if temperature causes your barrel to walk, send that rifle walking.
skeeterfogger
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Should have stated that this suggestion is mostly relevant to rifle target shooting for hunting. You would be shooting from essentially a cold barrel so first 2-3 shots should be the most accurate. I still use this because I believe it does help keep the barrel healthy.
Robbins290
Member
Most of my shooting is from 5 round mags. And normally from 1 mag. Sometimes 2. That normally keeps them pretty cool. I barely ever dump mags out anymore.
Jim Watson
Member
"bench guns"
As said, a good barrel properly installed, should not shift point of impact or spread groups as it heats. Benchrest and target shooters tend to shoot rapidly to stay in the same wind condition and accept the barrel wear.
My casual shooting for zero and ammo comparison is two rounds a minute, two five shot strings before cooldown (while shooting the other rifle I brought along.) That spares the barrel when score is not being kept.
Your description sounds like you value volume, so pepper away and buy a new barrel every once in a while.
As said, a good barrel properly installed, should not shift point of impact or spread groups as it heats. Benchrest and target shooters tend to shoot rapidly to stay in the same wind condition and accept the barrel wear.
My casual shooting for zero and ammo comparison is two rounds a minute, two five shot strings before cooldown (while shooting the other rifle I brought along.) That spares the barrel when score is not being kept.
Your description sounds like you value volume, so pepper away and buy a new barrel every once in a while.
300 yard distance isn't really a factor. i only mentioned distance in my post because it implied a reasonable 1.5 MOA on a practical target. no different than 1.5" at 100.
how fast you shoot definitely determines wear. some of the old rules of thumb like 3000-5000 rounds for some calibers were assuming certain competitions like CMP/NRA HP where "rapid fire" was 10 rounds in 70 seconds, but most of the shots were 1 round per minute.
I like to shoot fast. Last weekend I was shooting at a plate rack of five 6" plates at 600 yards and trying to see how fast I could hit them. usually 5 shots in under 10 seconds. I guarantee that wears out a barrel faster than letting it cool between shots. but it's way more fun.
i'll also add that the flame temp of powders varies quite a bit and doesn't correlate much to pressure directly. some powders burn hotter than others.
bfoosh006
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I am a huge fan of ALG Go-Juice. Stays put.. doesn't dry out.. Frankly it is everything "Fire Clean" claimed to be , but wasn't ( for me ) .
When I fire for groups, I base the rate of fire on the intended use of the firearm... if it is a bolt action hunting rifle, 3rds as fast as I can get it accurately on target. S/A 10rdsd minimum.
If it is a S/A... I fire, then get back on target , fire.. back on target.. etc.. 10rd groups. So basically 10rds takes a minimum of 20 seconds, to maybe 30 seconds... ( 100yds )
10rds will reveal more realistic performance and quirks from the tested ammo. Especially if you are heating up the barrel / rifle for its designed use.
( This is also where lapping the upper receiver face true / flat has helped considerably... far less fliers )
I prefer to shoot groups like I would desire the rifle to perform in a worst case scenario.
I have fired 20rd groups the same way in S/A's. Fairly brisk and hard.
I have found , and can't back it up with serious data... that firing a different brand / type / powder load ammo , after another,..... the next tested for accuracy round "needs" to season the barrels bore ... I have watched a bunch of factory loads group size shrink after the first 5 rounds... gradually settling into a more realistic group the ammo is capable of.
When I fire for groups, I base the rate of fire on the intended use of the firearm... if it is a bolt action hunting rifle, 3rds as fast as I can get it accurately on target. S/A 10rdsd minimum.
If it is a S/A... I fire, then get back on target , fire.. back on target.. etc.. 10rd groups. So basically 10rds takes a minimum of 20 seconds, to maybe 30 seconds... ( 100yds )
10rds will reveal more realistic performance and quirks from the tested ammo. Especially if you are heating up the barrel / rifle for its designed use.
( This is also where lapping the upper receiver face true / flat has helped considerably... far less fliers )
I prefer to shoot groups like I would desire the rifle to perform in a worst case scenario.
I have fired 20rd groups the same way in S/A's. Fairly brisk and hard.
I have found , and can't back it up with serious data... that firing a different brand / type / powder load ammo , after another,..... the next tested for accuracy round "needs" to season the barrels bore ... I have watched a bunch of factory loads group size shrink after the first 5 rounds... gradually settling into a more realistic group the ammo is capable of.
Varminterror
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A Tale of Two Threads:
Lubrication:
AR’s need lubrication. Plain and simple. Wet or dry, I don’t care - they need to be lubricated to run properly. When guys are fighting with their rifle, they may not have time nor interest in stopping to check lubrication after a couple mags of fire, so “running wet” up front helps ensure when things get hectic, the rifle doesn’t get too dry as lube thins from heat, flows from movement, fouls from powder or dust.
I’ve been in the “my AR is so wet, it sprays Mobil 1 all over with every shot,” camp, and I’ve used Hornady 1 shot dry lube, as well as frog lube. Many, many things work. If it sounds dry when you manually cycle it, then it IS dry, and you’re risking feed failures.
Temperature and rate of fire:
“Too hot to touch” is an exceptionally popular rule of thumb - or maybe rule of hand - but it’s complete bunk, and has no bearing based in science or metallurgy. The typical threshold for “too hot to touch” is nowhere near hot enough to cause any issues for any barrel steel. 1 second of skin contact with 160 can cause 3rd degree burns. This isn’t an “ouch that’s hot” or “wow, that’s too hot to hold onto” temperature - this is causing a burn entirely through the dermal layer and burning into the fat and muscle beneath. This isn’t a “I touched it and have a red mark” first degree burn or “it blistered my finger” second degree burn temp - this is burning completely through your skin. This is one of those “your hand jerked away and then you found coursing pain through your entire arm, and now need to go to the hospital because the sealed layer protecting your internal organs has been compromised,” type of things. 160 degrees, for less than a second. Steel’s not doing anything at 160, not even thinking about doing anything. Not for twice that, and twice again.
Comparatively, most folks will quickly let go of anything over 120 degrees. This isn’t even yet hot enough to cause 2nd degree, blistering burns after 5+ seconds of contact (threshold typically 140 @ 5 sec), but people will touch and let go of anything over 120, very quickly. A black leather motorcycle seat on a 100 degree, sunny day can exceed 120F, as a point of reference. 120 typically doesn’t cause 2nd degree, blistering burns instantaneously.
The math to determine the internal temperature isn’t so difficult, but you can be sure, the heat transfer to reach only 120F on the outside isn’t very long if your sustained internal bore temp is in excess of 980F (approx first phase shift for stainless).
It’s possible to get a barrel hot enough to cause damage, but “too hot to touch” isn’t a viable measure.
Lubrication:
AR’s need lubrication. Plain and simple. Wet or dry, I don’t care - they need to be lubricated to run properly. When guys are fighting with their rifle, they may not have time nor interest in stopping to check lubrication after a couple mags of fire, so “running wet” up front helps ensure when things get hectic, the rifle doesn’t get too dry as lube thins from heat, flows from movement, fouls from powder or dust.
I’ve been in the “my AR is so wet, it sprays Mobil 1 all over with every shot,” camp, and I’ve used Hornady 1 shot dry lube, as well as frog lube. Many, many things work. If it sounds dry when you manually cycle it, then it IS dry, and you’re risking feed failures.
Temperature and rate of fire:
“Too hot to touch” is an exceptionally popular rule of thumb - or maybe rule of hand - but it’s complete bunk, and has no bearing based in science or metallurgy. The typical threshold for “too hot to touch” is nowhere near hot enough to cause any issues for any barrel steel. 1 second of skin contact with 160 can cause 3rd degree burns. This isn’t an “ouch that’s hot” or “wow, that’s too hot to hold onto” temperature - this is causing a burn entirely through the dermal layer and burning into the fat and muscle beneath. This isn’t a “I touched it and have a red mark” first degree burn or “it blistered my finger” second degree burn temp - this is burning completely through your skin. This is one of those “your hand jerked away and then you found coursing pain through your entire arm, and now need to go to the hospital because the sealed layer protecting your internal organs has been compromised,” type of things. 160 degrees, for less than a second. Steel’s not doing anything at 160, not even thinking about doing anything. Not for twice that, and twice again.
Comparatively, most folks will quickly let go of anything over 120 degrees. This isn’t even yet hot enough to cause 2nd degree, blistering burns after 5+ seconds of contact (threshold typically 140 @ 5 sec), but people will touch and let go of anything over 120, very quickly. A black leather motorcycle seat on a 100 degree, sunny day can exceed 120F, as a point of reference. 120 typically doesn’t cause 2nd degree, blistering burns instantaneously.
The math to determine the internal temperature isn’t so difficult, but you can be sure, the heat transfer to reach only 120F on the outside isn’t very long if your sustained internal bore temp is in excess of 980F (approx first phase shift for stainless).
It’s possible to get a barrel hot enough to cause damage, but “too hot to touch” isn’t a viable measure.
OP
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DownrangeDuck
Member
Wow! I sure miss the warmth - I grew up in Northern CA but living in Eastern Oregon now. It was 23 degrees a couple of nights ago. We have two seasons here - Winter and August! Yep, I'm shooting two much too fast for sure and will slow things down. I just hope I haven't ruined both guns...
Thanks,
DD
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DownrangeDuck
Member
Thanks for the clarification! I was about to begin shopping Midway, Brownell's, etc. for "a saturated eat"
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DownrangeDuck
Member
A big thanks to everyone for all the great information! I'm glad I asked. I learned years ago... if you don't ask stupid questions, you never learn.
DD
DD
DustyGmt
Member
I believe that in a general sense, most civilian versions (AR15's) are made to or very similiar to mil spec. A military M4 bbl is made of CHF chrome lined 4150 steel. Many AR15's have the same. Although you can get bbl's without the chrome lining, many come with nitride coatings inside and out so bbl life is increased.
I'm not saying they are all made to the same specs as a military M4, but generally you should get roughly the same performance, bbl life out of a civilian AR as you would a military M4. Maybe more so because military rifles are used much harder and have to withstand full auto fire. Unless you buy a 4140 PTAC upper or some other substandard hunk of crap you should get many, many, many thousands of rounds down range in any non full auto rate of fire before you have to worry about keyholing, bbl replacement.
Competition guns are a whole other animal. I understand some guys discard their bbls after 1k rounds.
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DownrangeDuck
Member
Oh, one more thing I thought of is ammunition... I know that's probably similar to lubricant preferences discussions! For the AR-10, I always shoot Black Hills 308 Win - 175 Grain HPBT, for the AR-15 I'm shooting Remington 223 Rem - 77 Grain BT-HP - Federal Premium Sierra Match King Gold Medal or Black Hills 5.56x45 - 77 Grain Sierra Open Tip Match - Civilian "Mod 1". I live in a rural area which has a very nice 1,000 yard range. If I can eventually hit 1,000 yards and decide to go further with long distance shooting, I'll buy a good bolt gun. I'm shooting the AR's for now though because that's what I have.
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DownrangeDuck
Member
Thanks Dusty. I doubt I'll get into competition shooting. For now, it's fun just learning all there is to know about shooting. I've seen some of the videos on Long Range Shooters of Utah's site. These guys are shooting 2 miles and that's definitely out of my league and my budget! Very impressive to watch though!
Thanks!
DD
That was great ammo 10 years ago when 308 bullets used to “fall out of the sky at 800” lol. Still solid but there’s been a lot of advances in precision and long range bullets past ten years. So start with those but don’t be afraid to try other ammo
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DownrangeDuck
Member
All machines need lube.
Put enough on to keep it working, without wearing it yourself.
No one looks cool with black speckles all over their face after shooting once.
What kind to use isn't as important as using something.
But Slamfire's poster is an excellent rundown.
Yesterday I used motor oil off my truck dipstick to cool the drill bit I was using to cut out a screw in a threshold I was repairing. I didn't have any cutting fluid...
Speaking of cutting fluid... In my opinion, the best stuff ever is Tap Magic!
DD
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DownrangeDuck
Member
What would you recommend? Only using this ammo based on recommendation from the gun builder. I'm always open to other recommendations.
DD
DustyGmt
Member
For 5.56 I would recommend IMI 69gr razor core. It might just be that my gun with 1:7 twist is just particular in that it likes that specific ammo but it shoots better than any match grade 75 or 77 gr ammo I have used... worth a try. My 1:9 really likes it too.
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DownrangeDuck
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JFrank
Member
You're not shooting too fast, nor have you ruined anything. The only way to know when you're over heating your AR is to go out and shoot it until you do. Until you find that point, don't worry about it. I shot an AR with a stainless steel barrel enough in an afternoon that the barrel took on a golden hue. I shot it enough during each range session that it turned from a golden hue to a brown. That barrel still shoots good. ARs are tough. If you shoot out your AR barrel, you'll have accomplished something few shooters have, or ever will. You'll spend so much money on ammo doing it that the price of a new barrel will pale in comparison.
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DownrangeDuck
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