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How much training does the average civilian need?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by george burns, Nov 29, 2014.

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  1. george burns

    george burns Member

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    No Med, you ask a question in order to get answers, then you take the answers, "if you really wanted to know the answer, and amend your own opinion, which is why you asked others in the first place.
    Otherwise there would just be statements instead of questions. Folks are always hitting other folks that were just in the wrong spot at the wrong time, kind of like friendly fire, every year someone gets hit by a bullet meant for someone else. That's what happens when untrained people shoot into crowded places, and or shoot themselves.
    That's the kind of instance that just seems to happen to frequently, when someone who carries a gun, screws up. The training I would like to see is more practical, like don't shoot unless you can see where your bullet is going if you miss, or there is a house behind that guy that may have people in there and if I shoot this guy who is threatening me or other people with a gun , and miss, there may be worse consequences than allowing the good guy, to get into a better position to engage him in, or shoot low in the ground, rather than up and into a home or park, if possible.
    Or even if you hit the target, there is no guarantee that the bullet will stop when it hits the person it was meant for.
    Some people are much more nervous than others, and tend to not think clearly in that state they require a different type of training that may not even be practical, "I don't know", perhaps someone does. Or perhaps that only comes with experience that you never get unless these things have actually happened to you and you know how you reacted.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  2. Warp

    Warp Member

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    For the only driving test I ever took to get a driver license I doubled the speed limit and passed
     
  3. Warp

    Warp Member

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    ahh, so that's why cops never ever shoot an innocent bystander. It's because they have training.
     
  4. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    Otherwise there would just be statements instead of questions. Folks are always hitting other folks that were just in the wrong spot at the wrong time, kind of like friendly fire, every year someone gets hit by a bullet meant for someone else. That's what happens when untrained people shoot into crowded places, and or shoot themselves.
    Here we get into the realm of personal responsibility as much, or more than, any training issues. Anyone with a brain knows not to shoot unless you know your target. It takes years of practice and acquired knowledge to learn all the ins and outs of driving, shooting, swimming, carpentering or anything else. Some people take the time and responsibility to learn to do things properly and others just wing it and hope to chance that things work out. No mandated training could possibly be workable, affordable and enforceable.
     
  5. george burns

    george burns Member

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    Actually cops do it all the time, Just making a statement doesn't infer that I said it, I said that people, meaning people in general, including cops and military, often make the same types of mistakes in the heat of an exchange.
    So it would be at least an attempt in the right direction for untrained people to be brought up to speed on things like this.
    It's the same reason that guys who work in the machine shop are usually missing a finger or finger tip, if you aren't paying attention, things happen.
    I remember some 55 years ago, shooting a 22 rifle upstate NY. all day at at target on an old basketball backboard. When we were done and walked over the hill to the other side, there was a house hidden in the trees below.
    Thank god it was abandoned, we were on my uncles land, but someone had been living there, I never forgot that.
     
  6. Warp

    Warp Member

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    I know they do. I thought the sarcasm of my statement was palpable.

    Cops have more training than any mandatory carry license training for a private citizen would ever be, and yet they do it "all the time". Clearly mandatory training isn't going to make this non existent.


    Requiring government permission to exercise a supposed Right, and making that supposed Right cost more money and take more time, thus reducing the number of people who exercise it, is most certainly NOT moving the right direction.
     
  7. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    Mandatory training SOUNDS good, then you think of who mandates it....big brother .gov

    Then a bystander get killed by a "trained" CCW holder, well, obviously he wasn't trained enough so the .gov solution........more training, which will also cost more money.......10 years later a child holding toy gun get shot by CCW holder, SO obviously he wasn't trained well enough.... the .gov solution is more training, which will also cost more money.......10 years later.....see a pattern yet?

    I'd rather have not really universal background checks.

    Trained CCW holders will eventually mean no CCW holders.
     
  8. itsa pain

    itsa pain member

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    sounds like you are at least 68-72 years old. What makes you think you could hit anything in a high stress situation. your reflexes are that of sloth you are probably half blind maybe on some scrips and I bet would be shaking like a leaf if being shot at. that is not an insult it is the condition of everyone that age and many younger guys would not be up to it.
     
  9. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    "People do not have the right to unrestricted rights."
    - Al Sharpton.

    I suppose if you think along similar lines, then the average civilian will need as much training as their overlords are willing to dictate. Eventually, that answer becomes zero.
     
  10. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Your confusing doing something without thinking of the consequences of where your shots were going with training. There is a big difference between the two. The four rules have been around forever, and are common sense. Training won't stop some people from doing stupid things, with guns, cars, axes, drill presses, you name it.
     
  11. george burns

    george burns Member

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    A couple of you seem to be radically right wing, I never said that Government anything was needed. Just some better training in basic shooting, cover, concealment, and the like. You can't just take a conversation where you would like it to go just for the sake of arguing against the government.
    I am sure I have been doing this for a longer period of time than most, and have carried a gun legally in 2 states for almost 50 years, so you have the wrong number here. Not the mods statement, his make sense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  12. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    Please explain a little more in depth. I can think of 2 types of training
    1: voluntary...... This what we do now. Btw
    2: mandatory...... Who mandates it if not the gov

    Am I missing something?
     
  13. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Government something is the one and only way that any training could be mandatory/required.

    As soon as it is a requirement or mandatory...that is the government


    If you want to implore other people to acquire this training on their own, go for it. You will find a lot of supporters for that here.

    But nothing mandatory or required.
     
  14. huntsman

    huntsman Member

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    It becomes a problem with words like "better" and "basic" and who defines them.
     
  15. Warp

    Warp Member

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    If they need to be defined, we already have a problem.
     
  16. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    George Burns writes:

    In this case, it appears, the answers you got don't suit you. So, you're not going to "amend your own opinion" (something that was likely never an option in the first place.)

    Rather it would seem the point of your asking was to see if others disagreed with your stance, then convince them to amend theirs.

    That's a debate, with which there is nothing wrong. It's just that the thread title and opening post didn't announce the "real" purpose of the thread.


    I hear of this quite a bit, too, but it's almost always a case of criminal acitivty, such as gang-banging cowards firing at a crowd of rivals, or into a home of someone with whom they have a beef.

    Can you enlighten us as to where folks exercising lawful self-defense "are always hitting other folks that were in the wrong place at the wrong time"? I'm just not seeing those reports..

    Boasting about having carried lawfully without incident for over fifty years only re-asserts the argument that those like you who have done so, having been raised in a more gun-friendly culture (where they learned all they needed at home with Dad), would be highly displeased to have some elitists (or government entity) suddenly telling them they now need to "prove themselves."

    This will be the third time I've said this in this thread, but the vast majority of so-called gun accidents involving otherwise law-abiding owners are due to stupidity, not ignorance. Ignorance is cured with training; stupidity is, unfortunately, usually an incurable condition.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
  17. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    In addition to MedWheeler's comment, it seems to me that people getting hit by stray bullets, or "a bullet meant for someone else", that the vast majority of these are due to either criminal activity or police activity.

    Relatively speaking, only a very very tiny portion of the total are due to private citizens responding to criminal acts, or even to such things a hunting accidents and so forth.

    It would be good to see some statistics on this, but the straight forward FBI reports on violent crime don't seem to support huge percentages of private citizens causing this.
     
  18. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    When I got my Driver's License no mandatory training was required. When my children got their's, the State required me to train them, so I did - same as my parents taught me in the day.

    The only thing that changed was the State mandating it. The training was going to happen regardless, no way I would loan my car even to my children without my input.

    I spent 22 years in the Army Reserves, Infantry Ordnance Military Police, and served as a Military Police officer when deployed. But - when I applied for a CCW, my training was not recognized by the State, I was required to attend a class and also shoot to demonstrate proficiency.

    So, after a ten hour shift, I got off at 2:30 in the morning, attended the class with no sleep at 8 AM, and qualified that afternoon with my Glock I hadn't fired in three years.

    Got complemented by the Instructor, my Police Chief, on the group, he had no clue I'd been up over 24 hours.

    All that mandatory training does is get the State off the political hook when it licenses CCW users. It absolves them from the whiners and antis saying they let just anyone carry and use a firearm, which is our inalienable right. It is an infringement on me to spend $100 to demonstrate I already had that proficiency, and a further infringement to ignore and deny my military training and experience that the .Gov spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to give me. And paid me to do it.

    The system isn't just or legitimate, it's a political compromise that doesn't actually relate to the users skill level at all, and certainly cannot screen who will and will not make a wrong decision at the wrong time. Our LEO's demonstrate that to a high degree - they are on the front lines of using weapons, most never draw them in their career, some do and their decisions may still turn out wrong - even with all their training.

    Training cannot and will not prevent making a bad decision. It just lets the organization say "we taught them better and can prove it, so now you can't blame us."

    The average human, by and large, will still make the same number of mistakes with or without training when you look at the aggregate results.

    And there are quite a few LEO's who on reflection wished they hadn't responded with a legal and compliant exercise of their training, because it didn't resolve the situation for the better. Even with a Grand Jury citing no bill and the officer responded properly, they are without a job and their reputation is in ruins.

    Training can't fix that, mandated or not.
     
  19. GAF

    GAF Member

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    Training is good, but should not be required.
    I have been training since I got my first BB gun
    40 some years ago.

    In some states a hunters safety course is required
    before people born after a certain year can get a hunting
    license.
     
  20. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    This is the crux of the problem. I seriously doubt that anyone familiar with firearms is against gun owners training and becoming more proficient with weapons. I imagine that many of us have done some extended training in our lives. If we "require" some sort of mandatory "training" then said training will be conducted by our Government, be it State, Federal or Local.
    How many of us really want our government to mandate another portion of our lives? How would this additional training affect the number of gun accidents?
    Who actually does the training? Our Military? Law Enforcement? Private contractors? Who oversees the training and determines how much is "adequate"? Our Politicians? Or do we appoint a Czar?
    What determines proficiency? Do I need to hit a target at 15 yards? 20 yards?
    Can I sign a form indicating that I have been "training" with guns for over 40 years and get out of further training?
    Since we are talking proficiency to "protect" us from ourselves do I need a new course when I buy a different style of gun (revolver when I originally was "certified" with a semi)?
    Do you see Pandora's Box here?
    Like so many other things we need to use common sense, common decency and home training more than government intervention?
     
  21. Resist Evil

    Resist Evil Member

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    I'll only accept the premise of government-mandated training in order to keep and bear arms when it also mandates training in order to cast a vote. Until then, nothing doing.
     
  22. huntsman

    huntsman Member

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    ^ LOL

    Tru Dat. :)
     
  23. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    I won't accept training mandates on either the RKBA OR voting.
     
  24. GoWolfpack

    GoWolfpack Member

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    This made me giggle.


    Because opposing further government erosion of constitutional rights has always been a hallmark of the "right wing."


    Unless you want to smoke something other than tobacco.

    Or have a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender.




    A government mandated pre-requisite for exercising a right is inherently bad. The only requirement I should have to fulfill before exercising my right to arms is to be drawing breath. More than that is infringement.



    How much training does the average person need?
    As much as they can get. There is always more that could be gained by further training.

    How much training should be required before a person can "carry a deadly weapon" as you put it?
    None.
     
  25. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    + however many on this - encouraged, yes; mandated, no
     
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