How necessary are sights/optics on a shotgun for non-flying targets

[Jason_W]

In places where big game hunters are limited to shotguns only, I understand the need to try and make a shotgun into a rifle (an inevitably disappointing endeavor, IMO) but if a shotgun is going to be a niche weapon for terrain where shots on game will be relatively quick and at very close range, 50 yards or less, and more likely 25-35 yards, isn't the bead enough if you practice with it? I'm also

My next gun is going to be a multi-purpose 12-gauge meant to cover all applications from informal trap shooting to bird/small game hunting, home defense, and close range big game hunting. The short and mean looking defensive models with rails, ghost rings and breacher chokes look cool and make decent rainy day brush guns, but I know from having owned one or two in the past that they don't handle as quickly and point as intuitively as a field model.

I also owned a Mossberg 835 turkey model for a while. It was like hunting with an I-beam that fired shotshells. Additionally, the maraca style fore stock didn't endear me to the model. And on the subject of turkey hunting, is an optic really that much of an advantage? I've never seriously turkey hunted before so I'm genuinely ignorant on this. Can it be that hard to hit such a large bird with a bead sighted shotgun?

 

[rbernie]

if a shotgun is going to be a niche weapon for terrain where shots on game will be relatively quick and at very close range, 50 yards or less, and more likely 25-35 yards, isn't the bead enough if you practice with it?

A shotgun needs no sighting mechanism at all, if sized and employed properly. That's not fudd talk - that's reality.

A shotgun is intended to be pointed. To point effectively, it needs to fit the shooter such that it literally instinctively puts lead where the shooter is looking. Fitting isn't hard, especially with modern adjustable semiauto shotguns (Beretta, Browning, etc.) but it needs to be done. Once it's done, then it's all about shouldering the shotgun consistently enough such that the act of aiming becomes literally no more difficult than bring the shotgun to the shoulder and instinctively pointing yourself (eyes and arms, if you will) at the target.

Most wing shooters don't actually see the bead at all when they shoot. It's more of a help when fitting than when shooting.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

The front bead was adequate for many years and still is.
Turkeys are large birds but the target is the head and neck when using a shotgun.

 

[Jason_W]

The front bead was adequate for many years and still is.
Turkeys are large birds but the target is the head and neck when using a shotgun.

California actually allows air rifles for turkey hunting. In some ways, it makes more sense to poke one .30-.45 caliber hole in a bird than to pepper it with shot. But, the whole big bore air rifle thing is an expensive new pandora's box I can't afford at the moment.

 

[mcb]

With bird shot at typical small game and upland bird ranges the front bead is more than adequate. As other have said its a point and shoot situation. Practice and a front bead is all you need.

Though for really tight patterning turkey guns shooting longer ranges (>40 yards) some of the ghost ring style turkey sights or red dots do offer some benefits to help put the center of the pattern right on the turkey's head and neck.

For slug hunting I think a rear sight is enormously helpful, almost a necessity. A set of Truglo or Williams clamp on the rib sights will make a huge difference to the accuracy of a shotgun shooting slugs. Dedicated, and even rifled, slug barrels with sights or optics are even better. If you willing to put the time and work in shotguns can be very accurate with slugs.

 

[expat_alaska]

A shotgun needs no sighting mechanism at all, if sized and employed properly. That's not fudd talk - that's reality.

A shotgun is intended to be pointed. To point effectively, it needs to fit the shooter such that it literally instinctively puts lead where the shooter is looking. Fitting isn't hard, especially with modern adjustable semiauto shotguns (Beretta, Browning, etc.) but it needs to be done. Once it's done, then it's all about shouldering the shotgun consistently enough such that the act of aiming becomes literally no more difficult than bring the shotgun to the shoulder and instinctively pointing yourself (eyes and arms, if you will) at the target.

Most wing shooters don't actually see the bead at all when they shoot. It's more of a help when fitting than when shooting.

With bird shot at typical small game and upland bird ranges the front bead is more than adequate. As other have said its a point and shoot situation. Practice and a front bead is all you need.

Though for really tight patterning turkey guns shooting longer ranges (>40 yards) some of the ghost ring style turkey sights or red dots do offer some benefits to help put the center of the pattern right on the turkey's head and neck.

For slug hunting I think a rear sight is enormously helpful, almost a necessity. A set of Truglo or Williams clamp on the rib sights will make a huge difference to the accuracy of a shotgun shooting slugs. Dedicated, and even rifled, slug barrels with sights or optics are even better. If you willing to put the time and work in shotguns can be very accurate with slugs.

I agree with both of the above quoted posts. I shot skeet for several years with an 870 12 gauge IC choke VR barrel in the late 60's/early 70's. I even installed a center bead on the rib as it was the "chic" style back then. All I recall was acquiring the muzzle and keeping the gun moving during skeet rounds, never really seeing either of the two beads. Actually, the VR was more of a help in pointing the gun than the beads ever were. The fit of the buttstock is the most important thing. My 870 had a drop at the heel of 2-1/2" which allowed a firm cheek-weld and the ability to see the entire top of the VR. In fact, if I mounted the gun to shoulder and could see any part of the ribs I was canting the gun and it was usually to the right.

I never hunted turkey and never used slugs for deer/black bear, so have no productive comments on those subjects. I know there are areas of the US that disallow rifles for these tasks, but I never lived in those areas.

To the OP, good luck in your quest. Lots of good info from others in this thread, and thanks for the discussion.

Jim

 

[444]

I am not a big shotgun guy. Over the years I have shot trap at small/local club venues and I held my own and often won. Not to get too far afield but I think one of the reasons I did better than expected is that I didn't take it seriously and just had fun. I used Walmart shells and old beat up worn out shotguns that I had owned for years. Not "trap" or "target" guns. Anyway, I have never used the bead or any type of sight. It is just sort of like shooting instinctively. Just keep the gun moving and when it feels right, pull the trigger. I guess technically this requires the gun to fit you and point where you are looking. I guess my guns fit me.

With slugs, I want some kind of point of reference. Having SOME kind of sight is a must, at least for me. Even if it is just a bead, I will know approx. where to hold using the bead.

 

[expat_alaska]

I am not a big shotgun guy. Over the years I have shot trap at small/local club venues and I held my own and often won. Not to get too far afield but I think one of the reasons I did better than expected is that I didn't take it seriously and just had fun. I used Walmart shells and old beat up worn out shotguns that I had owned for years. Not "trap" or "target" guns. Anyway, I have never used the bead or any type of sight. It is just sort of like shooting instinctively. Just keep the gun moving and when it feels right, pull the trigger. I guess technically this requires the gun to fit you and point where you are looking. I guess my guns fit me.

With slugs, I want some kind of point of reference. Having SOME kind of sight is a must, at least for me. Even if it is just a bead, I will know approx. where to hold using the bead.

I think you just nailed it. Most rifle and pistol shooters would say "squeeze" the trigger. With a shotgun, one pulls the trigger and keeps the gun moving.

There were trainers in WWII and Viet Nam who taught aerial shooting to pilots and were good shotgunners.

 

[FL-NC]

I'll be deer hunting in some real thick Florida woods this year when gun season kicks off (we're talking 30 meters visibility) so the front & rear irons on my 20" 870 will be fine if I opt to use slugs instaed of buckshot, since I can hit a copenhagen can with them at 30 meters. For turkey hunting, I like front and rear fiber optic sights. When hunting turkey with a shotgun, you want a tight accurate pattern. You aim at the waddles and hope to put as many pellets as you can in the head/neck region. his requires you to test your ammo at varying ranges on turkey head/neck targets to determine your max effective range. Those birds aren't easy to hunt or kill. Unless you are in a place that they can be hunted legally with a rifle- then it gets a lot easier.

 

[FL-NC]

BTW- if you are hunting turkey with the "appropriate" shells (3" or 3.5" magnum, in the neighborhood of #4 or #5) anything but an auto will be "energetic" to your shoulder.

 

[lemaymiami]

All of my hunting with a shotgun has been for two legged critters - and I agree that most of the so called "tactical" setups leave you with a relatively cumbersome proposition... All I ever wanted was a simple bead sighted standard riot gun configuration with a four shot tube in something between an 18 and 20" barrel. That setup is quick pointing and well balanced for situations where movement and quick reaction is life itself... Even with only a bead sight I could always count on being able to put a rifled slug onto a 10" paper plate at out to 50 meters if needed...

 

[Jason_W]

All of my hunting with a shotgun has been for two legged critters - and I agree that most of the so called "tactical" setups leave you with a relatively cumbersome proposition... All I ever wanted was a simple bead sighted standard riot gun configuration with a four shot tube in something between an 18 and 20" barrel. That setup is quick pointing and well balanced for situations where movement and quick reaction is life itself... Even with only a bead sight I could always count on being able to put a rifled slug onto a 10" paper plate at out to 50 meters if needed...

That would be my gold standard for a bead sighted shotgun as well. Even if I could consistently do that at 30 yards, I'd be pretty happy. Any farther than that, why not use a rifle if allowed?

Part of this, for me, is a desire to build a simple, streamlined, gun collection. The other part is a little bit of defiance and resentment surrounding the overall and largely unspoken implication in the modern gun world that it's best to accessorize and specialize until you have a gun for every small niche (and Top Ramen for dinner every night).

So, you get the cool new tactical shotgun with rails galore and a ghost ring sight. But aren't you going to put an optic on it? That empty rail on the receiver just doesn't look right. So you buy a $50 dollar red dot sight, and it fails after a few shots. So, you buy a top of the line optic that cost more than the gun. Oh wait! You want to turkey hunt this spring? That sight on your ultra tactical rig is great, but the fixed open choke is hot garbage for turkey hunting. It's time for a specialized gun (wash rinse and repeat on the optic for it). Now it's fall and you want to do a little bird hunting with your friends. Well, the two guns you already have swing and point like a length of tree trunk someone cur down with an ax while drunk . . .

It all kinda make me want to go find a lightly used wing master, maybe buy a short extra barrel for unlikely HD scenarios, and a big crate of ammo to practice with. I am, after all, a man of simple tastes and limited funds.

 

[1911 guy]

For many years I was the owner of exactly one shotgun. It had to do it all. Small game, deer (Ohio, rifles were illegal then and still are except for certain "approved" calibers), birds and home (apartment back then) defense.

Pick up a pump gun with interchangeable choke tubes and a barrel a little on the short side. Mine was 24 inches. Once a year I bolted on the 2 1/2 power scope and sighted it in for slugs.

 

[22250Rem]

My next gun is going to be a multi-purpose 12-gauge meant to cover all applications from informal trap shooting to bird/small game hunting, home defense, and close range big game hunting.

...... That pretty well describes my circa 1968 12 ga. High Standard pump with a fixed modified choke. Over the years it's come through for me in everything listed except home defense ( I've never yet had to pick up a gun for that and hopefully it'll never come to that). Up until 1987 it was my deer gun and with the slugs it prefers it was plenty accurate to at least 50 yds. but I had to learn and practice so I knew my sight picture (commonly known as marksmanship). Nothing but a bead front sight on it and I also shot a bunch of sporting clays with it this past summer. Just recently I took a few pheasants with it on a hunting preserve and it really gave me the feeling of being a good "all around " type gun for everything from birdshot to slugs. Never used it for turkey but I know guys who take turkeys with bead front sights and chokes more open than the typical "full" or "extra full" chokes that are seen on most dedicated turkey guns. With turkey it's all about placing your pattern into the head / neck area and if you and your gun are both proficient it's entirely possible even with a front bead. Like 1911 guy says; a good, non-tactical, pump gun with screw-in chokes could pretty much cover all the OP's criteria. My High Standard covers all that pretty well and it would be even better if I could change chokes on it.

 

[Scooter22]

If you practice and know where your gun is shooting with the loads you will use a bead will get you by. They did for decades before all the specialized shotguns. One cheap sight you can get that will help with turkey and deer is a snap on "collar front sight with a 2-3" florescent rod. Easy to aim and you can tell if your not square on your aim. I stuck one on my HD shotgun and it really helped with rifled slugs at 50yds.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=snap+on+shotgun+sights

 

[RMc]

Actually, vent rib shotguns, such as the Remington 870 field guns, have a quite decent fixed sight system already. The ball on a flat, o , sight picture is identical to that of some late 19th century dangerous game guns equiped with block sights. Quite simply, the eye naturally centers the bead on the center of the flat. The trick of course is finding a suitable load that "shoots to the sights." My preferred thick cover deer and hog load, the Dixie Tri-Ball buckshot load, centers the tight 3 to 4 inch 40 yard pattern about 2 inches above point of aim at 40 yards. That is three .60" hard cast lead pellets of 315 grains each! This from a 26" vent rib barrel with an extended full choke tube.

 

[eastbank]

the biggest turkey I ever shot was at 6:10 AM in the spring season(shotgun only) that came running to my call thru some heavy brush and I was able to center his neck-head with the 2.5x leupold scope mounted on my 12ga win 1300 turkey special. I don,t think I could have made that shot with just a bead. eastbank.

 

[kBob]

For silly long shots with slugs I like the factory Ghost ring sights on my Mossberg 500. I hunted as a kid with a bead and birdshot fro tree rats and such and it was fine for that.....but for quick and centered on stationary or slow moving target for me a bead was no where near as quick and accurate.

FL-NC,
I grew up in Gadsden county and Madison County Florida and these folks from the rest of the country have no idea what kind of cover you are talking about. You might be in stuff so thick a family of bear might be playing tiddly winks against a family of pigs 30 feet away (and this is not a patch but miles and miles of that) and you not know it or you might step into a Paper company clear cut around that next bush (which might be anything from near bare sand for a mile or more , waist high black jack oaks with black berry brambles or a weird Ok "jungle" f sorts where at chest level and up you can not see thirty feet, the ground have thick cover to the point walking is difficult and if you squat you can see under the oaks and over the bushs for half a football field (in sort stuff can see you easy, but you can not see it as easily) or get luck enough to wander into a neatly kept pine plantation like some European cathedral with "halls" 200 yards long and the "floor carpeted with pine needles six inches thick and then back into stuff that wait a bit vines are the easy part.

That bit on the west side of the Appalachacola (lower Chatahoochee/Flint) the width of two counties used to be called Tate's Hell for a reason.

Yes I knew folks that did ALL their hunting with a shotgun with a bead, and a fair number of them. I also knew a lot of folks that drank Pepsi products when Gohd's own Coca Cola was available.

Having Ghost rings on my shotgun (it is my "social shotgun" for as Lemay says two legged game) in no way prevents me from using "Quick Skill" sight free pointing up close, like a good shot gunner might on skeet and trap and small game, AND givens me more accuracy at range.

Oh unless you have some way of driving those hairy hogs (what my buddies called Florida Black Bear) they are more likely to see, hear or smell you first and either wander off or find a comfortable spot to hide. BTW the term Bear-Dog can have more than one meaning, it can be a hound trained to drive bear, an extinct Florida Ice age beasty and the name is very descriptive (think wolf/griz hybrid), or a mean dog or man.

Have a fun safe hunt.

-kBob

 

[RMc]

Actually, vent rib shotguns, such as the Remington 870 field guns, have a quite decent fixed sight system already. The ball on a flat, o , sight picture is identical to that of some late 19th century dangerous game guns equiped with block sights. Quite simply, the eye naturally centers the bead on the center of the flat. The trick of course is finding a suitable load that "shoots to the sights." My preferred thick cover deer and hog load, the Dixie Tri-Ball buckshot load, centers the tight 3 to 4 inch 40 yard pattern about 2 inches above point of aim at 40 yards. That is three .60" hard cast lead pellets of 315 grains each! This from a 26" vent rib barrel with an extended full choke tube.

Taking the ball on a flat sight picture of modern single bead vent rib sight systems a bit further. With the many nose heavy variations of foster and attached wad full bore slugs on the market, simply trying out slugs that mimic the weight and velocity of shot loads that center close to point of aim is a good starting point to find the one that shoots to the sights. In that same 26" vent rib 870, abeit with an extended skeet choke, Federal Deep Penetrator rifled one ounce slug at a nominal 1350 fps shoots "to the sights" at 50 yards.

Bottom line, really give the existing sight system on your field gun a try first!

 

[Captcurt]

When I started to get serious about Turkey hunting I started out with a 1300 Winchester with a 28" vented rib barrel. It patterned low and to the left of POA. So I ordered a 21" smoothbore slug barrel with rifle sights, then played with the after-market chokes. To make a long story short, I had a gobbler come in at 12 steps. I shot the front half of his beak off. I am a firm believer that I would have missed completely if I had just sighted down a rib and also believe that a red-dot would be even better. With a tight choked gun and close target you had better be dead on.

 

[d2wing]

To the OP. Yes that should be fine. I recommend a field model with a 26 or 28 inch barrel. A field model points much faster and better than a tactical version . With a little training and some practice you should not need to worry about sights at close range unless maybe with slugs and a rifled barrel. In that case I use a dedicated semi auto with a red dot sight. Practice a see what works for you.

 

[PonyKiller]

If you opt for a rifled slug barrel, I would suggest a low powered scope, the accuracy and range of a sabot slug may surprise you. With a usable range of 150yds a plus it gives you the flexibility to make clean shots from near to far. I like the fixed 2.5 power compact scope I have on mine, with the fixed power and duplex style sight it allows me to range things relatively easily.

 

[AJumbo]

Others may disagree, but I follow this line of thought- a shotgun shooting a slug is a rifle. None of my other rifles lack a rear sight, so neither should my 12 ga. rifle. When shooting turkey loads through tight chokes, I treat the shotgun as a rifle because the tight chokes produce more of a group than a pattern; it's just that the group is produced by one round, instead of an average of several rounds. That tight group is directed at the turkey's head and neck, a fairly small and basically stationary target, even if the bird is walking. The same holds for my HD gun; I'm sending a group of heavy buckshot downrange, to a known POI, so I prefer sights over a bead. I don't discount those who are fine with a bead alone in any of those cases, I just prefer sights for targets that aren't moving much.

When the target is moving through the sky, I'm back to a bead. After I break a clay target or kill a bird, I can't usually express what the lead was for that shot, or remember seeing the bead. I "pull through" the target and keep the gun moving (ideally, LOL). I could probably knock the bead off the gun altogether and see the same results. Dynamic targets is where stock fit becomes vitally important.

Nothing beats practice, regardless what sight system you like.

 

[expat_alaska]

The same holds for my HD gun; I'm sending a group of heavy buckshot downrange, to a known POI, so I prefer sights over a bead. I don't discount those who are fine with a bead alone in any of those cases, I just prefer sights for targets that aren't moving much.

When the target is moving through the sky, I'm back to a bead. After I break a clay target or kill a bird, I can't usually express what the lead was for that shot, or remember seeing the bead. I "pull through" the target and keep the gun moving (ideally, LOL). I could probably knock the bead off the gun altogether and see the same results. Dynamic targets is where stock fit becomes vitally important.

Nothing beats practice, regress what sight system you like.

I can agree with your perspective to a point. If you are shooting at a target indoors (HD) at very short yardages, I doubt you will have time to acquire the rear sight, and it is not needed. If the target is not moving much, you don't even need a bead or a rear sight. Acquire the muzzle, point and shoot. It's not a turkey shoot at 50+ yards.

Even if one is shooting trap or skeet, and the gun fits you, all one has to do is acquire the muzzle and the rest is gravy if one keeps the gun moving. We are not talking rifles here. A shotgun is a point and shoot gun, preferably with both eyes open. I think that "pulling through" a target is an arcane idea and believe one must identify the target and stay out in front of it all of the time to make a hit. It works with pheasant, quail, ruffed grouse, et al. How many times do you trudge the fields with a gun mounted on your shoulder?

Try shooting skeet international style with the gun down at the hip when you call "pull". Just pay for one round at a range. If you do what you suggest on any low house bird you will shoot behind and low almost every time because the clay is rising, just like a real bird would do. The muzzle has to be ahead and slightly above the bird at all times.

The reason you can't express what the lead was is because you are praying that the follow through on the target was enough. One must instantly judge how far away the target is and make adjustments for it.