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How would you handle this one?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Balrog, Nov 30, 2019.

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  1. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    I didnt read all of the replies.

    Its hilariously ironic putting myself in this situation as I work at a lumber mill so wood is something I come by on a regular basis.

    Its certainly not worth shooting someone over, at least in my case.

    I also dont understand why if the guy had a CCW it wasn't on his person. This is something I'll never understand. You're not "carrying" if the gun isn't on you.

    Not that it would've been warranted in this situation anyways. Give the perps the lumber and if they wanted more or pressed the situation, well he didnt have his gun on him anyway so I guess the conversation stops there.
     
    Phaedrus/69 likes this.
  2. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    I will circle back around to the OP and answer what I personally would have done. For the most part I try to be pleasant to people, or at least polite. The two men may have been making a threat or it could have been an ill-advised attempt at humor. I would treat it as the latter, but say something like, 'well, in that case I'd have to take a video and call the cops". That's a threat that they absolutely know you can back up because virtually every human over the age of six that you run into has a cell phone on them. If they escalate things I'd have to play it by ear but I can absolutely say their first move towards my trailer of cedar would not be met by my drawing down on them. I like money just fine but I really dislike the idea of killing someone over it even if I'm legally in the right. But by making a solid show of resisting I will have plenty of evidence on the many CCV surely to be clustered around the station that I was not the aggressor.

    And again I will also loop back around to the concept of can vs should. There are likely a lot of situations that you can legally shoot someone that you morally can't (or at least can't and make any pretense to being a moral human being). We all will draw that line based on our character so I can't say where you will draw yours. But I can't stress how little interest I'd have in shooting someone dead if I could avoid it.

    Lastly it comes down to the AOJ triangle. Two of them and one of me? Okay, maybe a disparity of force but I'm 5'9" and 225 lbs. Do they have the means to steal it? Will they grab 1,000 lbs of lumber and ride off on a bicycle? Do they appear to have the means and intent to take the trailer and truck, too? Will they persist in trying if I verbally and/or physically resist? While I have no desire to kill a man over a few thousand dollars I have even less desire to be killed over the same.
     
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  3. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Some people wear their carry piece in a position that is difficult to reach while driving, that might be why he had it under the seat. Personally if mine would be under the seat I'd never be able to get it out in time.
     
  4. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    Not being prepared significantly limits your options, that's why I make a point of being prepared.

    I will leave my house without a gun before I will leave it without a phone.

    like I mentioned earlier I deal with Street Rats every night and almost everything I know about dealing with Street Rats I learned from not being prepared while dealing with Street Rats.

    At work I am required to warn before calling the police, "I'm sorry guys this is private property. I need you to either comply with whatever company rule you're not complying with or leave or I'm required to call the police."

    If they do anything but comply immediately after I issue that warning I pull out my phone and start dialing. If they make any attempt to stop me that's another bright line and you go to the next tool in the box.

    I had a run-in with a raving Maniac one morning. He told me he owned everything from the south end of Colorado Springs to the New Mexico border and that he was going to kill me if I didn't get off his land. I was standing there uniform with a duty belt wearing body armor very visibly armed and he still said he was going to kill me.

    I gave him the you need to leave speech and he started digging in his shopping cart. while I was on the phone with the police he pulled out an axe. I could have dropped him then and there and I would have walked, instead I pulled out my OC spray. When he saw me start shaking that up he dropped that ax like it was hot. The cops showed up a couple minutes later and took him to detox.

    Sometimes nothing works and you have to fight. It is what it is.
     
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  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    They had not so threatened, and it would be difficult to support such a claim.

    His personal perception would not support a defense of justification very well.

    And at that point, the defender would surely have committed a felony,

    The defender was lucky.

    That's true in any US jurisdiction.

    Attorney Andrew Blanca tells us that most of his cases involve just such a situation.

    He and the clients' lead attorneys usually win--they are very selective in the cases they accept.

    But they could buy an awful lot of board feet of cedar for the legal expenses

    Which they were not doing.

    Place of work, and in all jurisdictions, your occupied vehicle, and they have to be attempting to break in before deadly force is justified.

    No.

    I interpreted your statement as having to do with exposing or mentioning the firearm.

    Driving away is what you meant by "act aggressively"?

    Actually, no.

    And what if they were?
     
  6. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Thanks for your critique of what happened Kleanbore. How would you have handled it though?
     
  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I would have entered the truck, locked the doors, and started the engine.

    My intent would have been to drive elsewhere.

    Had they tried breaking the glass, to Plan B,
     
  8. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Seems reasonable.
     
  9. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    @Kleanbore , you're going to have to reread this post of mine where I explain the origins of this whole disagreement between us:

    Maybe then you can understand that when I said "act aggressively" it was in response to one of two hypothetical scenarios I intentionally created, based on the OP (which I considered too vague). Which I created to illustrate my belief that more details were required.

    Once the OP clarified the details, I responded to that scenario. Where I advocated for driving away.

    If you reread all my posts throughout the thread, you'll see that your issue with my comment to "act aggressively" is not actually based on the OP's scenario as it happened. I believe you have picked it out without fully comprehending the context, and made a meal out of it. If you wish to discuss it further, start a new thread about it and invite me to join you there. But if you can now see where that comment came from, I think you can agree with me that this is getting out on a tangent. And it's not really relevant to the thread.
     
  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I understood perfectly.

    The scenario does not differ. You have presented a particular description:

    "...in one of those scenarios - the one where I depict the truck driver to be alone, in an isolated place, at night, where there are no passers-by and no cameras, and with two men positioning themselves tactically and looking at him as prey -"
    None of that would obviate the need for a defender to meet all of the required elements of a legal defense of self defense, by one bit.

    In fact, "acting aggressively" would destroy any such defense.

    Yes, it is very relevant to the thread.
     
  11. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    If you say so. I've had about enough of this nonsense. Have a great day.
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That should do it. If anyone has anything thoughtful and relevant to add, send one of the mods a PM.
     
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