Hunting With Dogs

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Art Eatman

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Hokay, H&H, here ya go, boy! :)

Hunting with dogs has been part of homo sap's deal for thousands of years. Since multitudes of generations back, the Basenji was bred as a lion dog, e.g.

Folks watch Labs and Pointers and say, "Wow! That's neat!" when folks hunt ducks or quail.

Then we get into the deal of hunting deer with dogs, as was long traditional in the southeastern U.S. Rational thought seems to go out the window, for both sides of the argument.

To me, the most rational argument against it has to do with control of the dogs as to trespass onto private property. There are ever-fewer large privately-owned tracts where avoiding trespass is reasonably easily accomplished. To some extent, then, public lands are among the few places left with adequate size.

Coon- or fox-hunting seems not to be as much of a problem as to space...

One of the better "reads" on the issue is "The Voice of Bugle Ann"...

Art
 
I was going to ask a question about this sometime actually. Big issue over here (waste of time mostly if you ask me though) what with the 'Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible'.

As I see it the major arguments against hunting with hounds in the pursuit sense are:

1) Lots of stress on the prey. This is pretty controversial. Some claim foxes have been observed cleaning or even mating during hunts.

2) Nature of the kill. Some say ripped to pieces, some say quick and painless. I know that african wild dogs are pretty slow killers, no feline style coup de grace before eating begins, usually in that instance there is a large disparity in the sizes of the animal involved, a wildebeest being quite large. A fox however is smaller than the hound.

What say you, who have experience?

Art's right about the bird dog aspect, tends to be hardcore anti-hunters who are against that, but pack pursuit seems to raise the hackles of a much wider group. We used to hunt deer with hounds too and course hares with lurchers. As I understand it those activities are now illegal, although in some Scotland seem to be using the slightly different laws, which include a ban on hunting foxes with hounds, to use dogs to drive foxes on to guns.

This issue has attracted way too much Parliamentary time and media attention in recent years. It is not really an issue in my book, aspects of trespass Art mentioned aside. I have heard stories of hounds trespassing in to gardens and killing pet cats.
 
2) Nature of the kill. Some say ripped to pieces, some say quick and painless. I know that african wild dogs are pretty slow killers, no feline style coup de grace before eating begins, usually in that instance there is a large disparity in the sizes of the animal involved, a wildebeest being quite large. A fox however is smaller than the hound.

I don't have any experience with fox hunting, but I've seen lots of hunting dogs killing small game and it's pretty quick, although I doubt completely painless. On the occasions when my dogs have caught rabbits for example, two shakes of the dogs head and the rabbit is dead. I suppose the size and fight of the prey compared to that of the hunting dog is part of the equation too - how quickly, for instance, can ten 40 lb hounds kill one 20 lb fox?

It might be both "ripped to pieces" and "quick".
 
I guided behind hounds in NM for bear and lion for some time several years ago. First of all hound hunting is probably the most humane form of hunting known to man...

What other style of bid game hunting allows the hunter the option of catch and realease.

The hounds do not "maul" or "Rip to shreds" their prey. They mearly find it and chase it untill it trees. The films the antis are so fond of showing are after the bear or lion has been killed the hounds are generally allowed to worry the kill. This is their reward for a job well done!!

I mean COMMON guys you don't really think a bear or a lion is going to sit there and allow itself to be mauled by a little ole dog do you?

And the last point I'll make for now. One thing I found most hunters had in common on a hound hunt in the Rockies. Nearly all of them underestimated by a large degree what kind of shape they needed to be in. Hound hunting in the high country is the most physically demanding style of hunting in the world bar NONE!

It is not uncommon to have to remain out over night with minimum equipment in the dead of winter when hound hunting. It is not uncommon to walk jog and run up to twenty miles in a day. Horses generally just get you to the really steep country where they are tied and the hunt begins on foot.

I've had clients who have hunted sheep the world over tell me they've never done anything tougher than hound hunting. Because here's the deal. When you are hunting Elk or Sheep and you get tired you go back to camp. You simply can't do that when you've got a pack of hounds out and they tree up 3 ridges over in a blizard just at dark in feburary. You've gotta go see what they've caught.

I run 30 to 40 minutes a day I walk as often as possible with a pack on to try and stay in hunting shape. I can outwalk 95% of the guys I take hunting on any given day in any weather with any load on. I'm not trying to brag but that has been my observation. With that in mind I do not feel that I am anywhere near in hound hunting shape nor could I be in the next 2 months no matter what I did.

The misconceptions about hound hunting are deep and widespread. And almost always prepetuated by someone who's never tried it!
 
While I agree with H&Hhunter on hunting with dogs for bear or cats, I have to wonder about hunting deer with dogs. They aren't treed, I assume. Never having done it, I'm assuming that they just chase and chase, until you get a running shot.

Besides the issues of trespass, wouldn't there be a negative harassment effect on the deer being chased, such as lactic acid taste in the meat, etc.?
 
The relationship between man and dog is perhaps the greatest human-animal interaction known. Dogs have a very long history of working for, and cohabitating with man. No other animal has had that kind of enduring relationship with man. Horses are great, sure, but they aren't dogs. (And can we really count cats, who just tolerate living with us because we care for them?) Nothing wrong with properly utilizing the canine for hunting purposes, be it birds (pheasant being my personal favorite), pigs, bear, or deer.
If cops use 'em for catching BG's, we should be able to use 'em for going after game animals.
 
I must admitt that I've never purposly hunted deer with dogs. I really don't know how that program operates. I did have a group of young hounds bay up a 5X5 elk once in the middle of a river. Sometimes these things happen. But a well trained dog won't do this. (usually..)

I do have a hog dog who's been responsible for wide spread destruction of several dozen of hogs this year alone.

What I do with my dog is cruise the edge of really thick nasty brush where a man could never go. When the dog scents the hog he charges in and harrasses the hogs. He yaps nips and generally pisses them off so bad they start grunting and growling and trying to bite or strike at my dog. That's when daddy comes in with the big double and commences to eradicate these pesky critters. The hogs are so worried about the dog that I can usually get two or three on the ground before they even try to make a break for it.

My dog is also trained to blood trail and has recovered a dozen or so hogs three deer and more coyotes than you can shake a stick at.

I love hunting dogs and I love hunting with dogs. It's like having the best hunting partner in the world all the time.
 
What little I know about hunting deer with dogs in the SE U.S., comes mostly from reading.

The deal seems to be that the dogs run the deer in the typical circle that a deer will travel. The hunters wait and then shoot the deer. The ranges are typically rather short because this is commonly done in fairly heavy brush and timber. The hunters set up along trails...

I've hunted in the Appalachicola River bottomland swamps, and have seen dog-hunts across the river in the National Forest. That's some jungly country all around that area, for sure.

If there is any bad taste to the meat, I don't reckon they'd have been doing this for some 200 or more years. I've eaten some deer meat from "dog-hunt" kills. Tasted good to me, and I've eaten more than my own weight in deer meat. My own kills and cooking as well as others'.

:), Art
 
Its not hunting deer with dogs (and some would say its not hunting ... its pest management) but I had a mate who worked as a goat culler. He used a dog (cattle dog x Rhodesian ridgeback bitch) to locate, track and despatch goats. The dog would alert him to the presence of goats (pointing and soft whining) and on his command take off and "scruff" goats.

John described the dog's "scruffing" behaviour as chasing a goat, grabbing its throat and bringing it down and holding it until he ran up. The goat was unharmed during this ... the dog had a very soft mouth. When John got within a few feet of the dog and goat, the dog would let go and run off to catch another goat. John would spend a frantic time chasing the dog and despatching goats as fast as he could go until the mob was all caught or they managed to escape.

My understanding of dogs used for hunting deer is much the same as I've described for goats ..... locating and holding deer until they're despatched and tracking wounded deer.

I don't see that as being anything more or less than the job a bird dog would perform .... locating, holding, retrieving.

Spinner
 
The deal seems to be that the dogs run the deer in the typical circle that a deer will travel. The hunters wait and then shoot the deer. The ranges are typically rather short because this is commonly done in fairly heavy brush and timber. The hunters set up along trails...[

Just like rabbit hunting eh? It never would have occurred to me, although I guess it's logical.
 
Mr. White Tail doesn't really like to get too far from his home turf. So, a circular flight track. From what the wildlife folks have written, maybeso a mile diameter, roughly.

A good percentage of dog-guys are more interested in just listening to the dogs baying while on trail than actually shooting anything...

Art
 
Art,

Just so you know, in the state of Texas a dog is not capable of tresspass, but a hunter is. So if I go out with my hog dogs and strike a hog on your neighbors and the hog decides to bay-up in your front yard, my only legal option is to call you and ask for permission to retrieve my dogs, or call the warden and ask him to retrieve my dogs should you deny me access. Now I hunt a couple times a week with my dogs and most of the area we hunt, we have permission on lots of surrounding areas, and most of the time the hogs don't run very far before the dogs get them stopped(normally a couple hundred yards at most).

A few months ago a good friend of mine was invited on a hog hunt on 1500 acres where the owners had gotten permission on right at another 3,000 acres in adjoining land, the only person who refused permission and didn't want the dogs there was a man who had stocked hogs into the area in order to run hunts, but he refused to fence his property to keep the hogs from destroying grazing land and cropland. To make a long story short the dogs struck a large hog well inside the 1500 acres and the boar ran across the road into the 50 acres they didn't have permission on. These drunk hillbillies took it upon themselves to grab a rifle and go shoot the damn dogs killing their hogs. The hunters with the dogs where standing on the country road calling their dogs. All the dogs had tracking collars, cut collars, and reflective material to help in id. The boar ran into a stock tank and the dogs tried to catch it in the water. The landowner claims that upon arrival he felt they had a calf caught, but could not tell for sure. So as this black mass that could be heard grunting from the road where the hunters where, threw a dog free, the landowner shot it. Now at some point the dogs realizing what was happening tried to make a break for the road and they ended up killing 3 of the dogs and crippling 2, one dog they shot 9 times. Now when the police arrived, the story was that a pitbull and this pack of dogs had attempted to attack them and they shot in self defense, cept every dog was shot in the rear, and most of them poorly placed Texas heart shots. The story then changed to they felt the dogs where attacking livestock...

So the Sheriff in Guadalupe county began his investigation into the landowner illegally shooting the dogs. He found sufficient evidence to show that what transpired that night was premeditated, that the landowner was outside simply because he saw trucks drive up with dogs. What happened later and which nobody can believe to this day, is the DA, didn't want to prosecute the man, even though the game warden had specifically informed him it was illegal to shoot hunting dogs, and the landowner had in the past allowed the hunters to enter his property and retrieve dogs as long as they allowed the hog to live. No nasty words to the hunters in the past, no warning, just if it bays on my land, don't shoot it. The Humane society became involved in the case because of media coverage plus some other animal rights groups, it was an uneasy truece between hunters and them as this worked out. But with enough pressure from hunters, the media, the sheriff, and the AR's the DA finally agreed to place the case before the grand jury. According to the newspaper and the interviews of those who did the shooting, the DA instructed the jury that what was being sought was a indictment under the new State Cruelty laws, the ones that mandate a min. two year sentence. But have only been used to prosecute people that torture animals. He never instructed them as to the state law on the books outlining under what guidelines a dog may be shot on your property which are: Defense of Persons, livestock, or to stop destruction of property. A dog chasing deer is not a legal target, nor is one baying a hog.

The Grand Jury "No Billed" the shooters on animal cruelty charges and the sheriff is now attempting once again to have the shooters indicted on the original law violation he tried to have the DA get in the first place.

What is going to happen next is anyones guess. I'm sure a civil case will be brought at some point by the men who lost dogs.

What makes this case different is this is the first case of this kind to be lost in the state of Texas in the last ten years. Every other instance when a landowner shot a dog that was baying a hog, the landowner has been charged, convicted, and made to pay civil reperations to the hunters.

Just something for everyone to think about. I run dogs and I am not always sure how I feel about all this. I have a strong sense of private property rights, but also feel responsible citizens look out first and formost for the protection of the native wildlife, which hogs are not.

Art it is a tough situation to get a grasp on, most of the guys I know do everything within their power to keep their dogs on places they have permission on. It doesn't always work. Five years ago I owned a pack of dogs I could call off a race if they went into anothers property, but the amount of time invested to get to that point and the training it required is something that most guys simply can't do, or they lack the knowledge to do. The dogs we use to do this with are willing to accept pain and keep after it, most bird dogs if they got cut will call it a day. Alot of times hog dogs will be baying with several large cuts from getting a little to close. So the use of a shock collar often isn't enough to get a dog to quit a race and come in, they are just to used to pain.

I'm starting over with a new pup at present and am planning on having her to the point I can call her off by the time she is two years old or so. But even with the best broke dogs, the best training, sometimes it just doesn't work. I've been in the middle of 15,000 acres and lost a dog, only to find it hours later bayed up miles away in a neighboring ranch we didn't have permission on, and I have never owned a dog I could call off a bay unless I was right there at the bay.

In short we do all we can to stay legal and we attempt in anyway we can to keep the dogs off your place or anyones we are not to be in. But dogs can't read, they don't know the meaning of purple posts, and so the state found it prudent to protect them and their owners with the laws they put in place. The thing is it applies and protects all manner of dogs, which is the main problem with the way it is written.

Just thought i'd chunk this in, haven't been here in awhile and return by writing what is probably a really long winded essay...
 

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Thanks, Steve.

Big Bend National Park has hogs, now, in the northern part. They're worried about movement into the Chisos Mountains, the "crown jewel" of the park.

There's one pack of lion dogs that I know of, I think up at Alpine. I don't know how they'd do against hogs...

Art
 
Based on a few responses here, I think some of the members think dogs running deer catch them.

It can happen (usually with dogs running wild), but if you're hunting deer with dogs, the dogs jump and follow the deer...and you shoot the deer. It's not like England, where the dogs catch and kill the fox. Even with hogs, the dogs find the hog, and sometims hold him- and then the hunter(s) kill him.

John
 
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