I am at the crossroads: Tanfolgio or Glock...

[Deer Hunter]

I think I'm gonna start a war with this one.

I was at my local gun dealer today and I picked up a Glock for the first time. My first thought was, "Hell, this thing's light...." which was a bit of a turn-off when I thought about shooting a 10mm through it. The guy at the counter assured me that the glock did not kick as much as other 10mm's because the polymer frame "bent" when shot, soaking up some recoil. This turned me off slightly, since I don't like the idea of my guns "bending". He's a Glock dealer, so I assume he would know what he was talking about.

I've been wanting a 10mm for a while, and it's between a Tanfolgio Witness and the G20. Now, I was once completely set on the Tanfolgio, but now the glock seems to be a very good choice. No need to put in a new recoil spring, it's availble nearby, and I don't have to put up with EAA's customer service.

My question is this: How different are these guns in terms of reliability and accuracy? What about felt recoil?

I promised myself I'd never buy a glock, but it's pretty tempting. Even though they look like little toys.

 

[bakjr]

I've got a G20 and I think for the price, you cannot find a better 10MM out there. 15 round clips in the G20 versus 10 (I think) for the Witness. Also, I've heard that the Witnesses can be hit or miss as far a dependability. I find that my G20 doesn't really have a lot of recoil, the gun pushes straight back versus twisting or muzzle climbing. My wife doesn't have any issues shooting it with the lighter Remington 180 gr. loads.

That said, I will probably pick a Witness up, since I also have a G29 and a Kimber Eclipse in 10MM and it seems I can't get enough 10's!

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

He's a Glock dealer, so I assume he would know what he was talking about.

Do you know what they say about assuming?

 

[Rob1035]

if the G20 fits your hand, I'd definately go for that. Cheap, plentiful mags, huge aftermarket support, huge factory support, great reliability record, etc etc etc...

 

[Navy87Guy]

The guy at the counter assured me that the glock did not kick as much as other 10mm's because the polymer frame "bent" when shot, soaking up some recoil. This turned me off slightly, since I don't like the idea of my guns "bending". He's a Glock dealer, so I assume he would know what he was talking about.

Glocks don't "bend". If the G20 is anything like my G21, then the recoil is noticeably less than my 1911-style .45 ACP. But that can be attributed to the different bore axis and the way that the recoil is transmitted down your arm. The Glock works with your body, not against it.

And let's face it -- the only reason your guy is a Glock dealer is because they sell. He doesn't have any special qualifications or go through any training to stock the guns on his shelf.

I think you'd be happy with the Glock -- and the Glock service.

Jim

 

[Jamie C.]

Well, a polymer framed gun does flex a bit when it's fired.... as to whether or not that flex absorbs any significant recoil I can't say.

On the other hand, I can say that if it bends... there's something seriously wrong with it.

And sorry I can't help you with your decision, Deer Hunter.... I'd be a long while making up my own mind on this one, and would probably end up with both.


J.C.

 

[gabarber1]

deerhunter: How big are your hands? When I started the search for my first handgun I handled probably 20 different makes and models- for me the IMI baby eagle was the only one that fit my hand- I have a broad palm, but kinda short fingers- the baby eagle has one of (if not the) smallest handles around. it just felt right- not only that, but at just over 2.25 lbs empty mag, there is hardly any recoil. It is almost completely steel. they aren't too badly priced, even new they're in the 380.00 to 400.00 dollar range- I would check one out if I were you. The web site is www.magnumresearch.com- good luck!

 

[atblis]

Well

I've had the Tanfoglios. EAA customer service is every bit as bad as you hear. The Witness is a very promising pistol. Very fun to shoot, but could use some polishing (and a new importer). I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if the price is right (like $269.99 at CDNN).

If you like the Glock (it fits you), that would be a good route to go. Be advised though that you may need a different barrel to work up some nuclear loads.

In general the Glock will be more reliable and durable. The Witness can be a very reliable pistol, and durable but EAA/Tanfoglio seems to put out a few more lemons than average.

 

[boldkharma]

After owning A G20, a witness compact, S&W 1076 and a Delta Elite, the G20 is the only 10 that remains. It is accurrate, reliable and holds 15+1. My witness was sent back for a new frame after it cracked the first time at the range. I was also unable to get through one mag without failures to feed or eject. I will not own another witness 10mm. My Glock goes bang every time and thats a must for me.

 

[Deer Hunter]

An ass out of u and me, I get it.

The Glock seemed to fit my hand, and I assume after owning it for a while I could get a 6" barrel for it. The reason I think Glock might be a better choice is because of the availibility. The Tanfolgio and the Glock both have the same sized magazine capacity, 15+1, and can be gotten for roughly the same price (The tanfolgio I want is a Witness Match edition). I have pretty large hands, I'm 6' tall.

Another question is how durable, right out of the box, would a G20 be when having Double Tap 180 grain loads pushed through it?

 

[ugaarguy]

Deer Hunter, First, I've owned a 40 cal Glock for the past seven years and loved it. As for the Glock 21 I've never personally owned one, but a coworker at the gun store I worked at back home (before I joined the Air Force) swore by his. He was a big guy who liked to handload hot rounds. He owned Rugers in 45 LC for the frame strength that let him push hotter loads than a 44 Mag since the LC case gave him room for more powder. He was the kind of guy who expected alot out of his weapons and he had nothing but good to say about his Glock 21; which had to have taken quite a beating the way he loaded.

Second, From a guy behind the gun counter perspective I'll agree with everything that's been said about Glock's support and sales for both the dealer and personal owner. They are truly a great company and were always a pleasure to deal with. I don't know about EAA's support because we sold very few of them and I mostly remember them just taking up counter space. On the other hand I can't count how many Glocks we sold and how many we couldn't sell because demand was so great that we couldn't keep them in stock - that should tell you something. I have nothing bad to say about Winess pistols; I just think the Glock is a superior product with superior support.

Edit: The Glock 21 owned by a coworker mentioned above was actually a model 20. I may never be able to keep the 20/21 straight as to caliber - I just know them as the "Big Glocks."

 

[browningguy]

Having EAA as an importer is probably a bad thing. The good thing about the Tanfoglio is you'll probably never need customer support. My 9mm has been shot a lot over the years with never a problem, and I can say the same for a friend who's wife shoots a 10mm, yes, you don't want to get on her bad side.

There is simply no other gun that offers the value for the money, if EAA ever starts distributing the new stock and limited models they've been advertising for 6 months I'll be one of the first to get one in .40 S&W. They have a well earned reputation for being accurate and reliable out of the box.

But it really comes down to what you shoot best. I'm a died in the wool cocked and locked fan. I've been shooting 1911's and BHP's since the very early 70's and it's just what I'm used too, and you can carry the Tanfoglio's that way. Others learned on DAO guns and like them best, so make your own decision and let us know how it shoots.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

As others mentioned, if the Glock fits your hand, it can't be beat.

I have a Glock 20 and I love the thing. It was built from the ground up to shoot full power 10mm Auto and it does that very well. If you reload, I would recommend a KKM barrel to extend case life, but other than that, the Glock 20 is reliable, durable, accurate, simple, lightweight, and has excellent mag capacity.

Perceived recoil is arbitrary, but I find my Glock 20 to be more comfortable to shoot than my brother's Springfield Armory Mil Spec. As previously described, it pushes straight back in the hand with little in the way of muzzle flip. I've seen a 16 year old girl do just fine with my Glock 20 loaded with Double Tap's Match load featuring a 180 gr FMJ at 1250 fps. Her reaction was the same as mine, just a big grin on slide lock. Good times to be had with the 20.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Great two opposing posts. That's not making it easy.

One reason I may lean more toward the Glock would be the availibility of the Witness Match 10mm. I havn't heard of many being sold by EAA. Reports are very nice, yet I still like the idea of one day putting a 6" barrel on the Glock. It seems like I'm warming up to Glocks, even though I think they look very ugly. But hell, if it works everytime, then I guess I could live with it.

I might like to add that I only shot a 1911 once in my life, and it's one of the only automatics I've ever shot. My experience has been with a browning MKI and a 1936 berretta .380. I shoot my S&W 625 all the time with +P 230 grain bullets, though.

 

[atblis]

Well

The Witnesses do break
I've
cracked a slide
had a rear sight fly off
broken multiple magazines
had a firing pin spring break
had feeding issues

I've heard of
barrels cracking
slides cracking
frames cracking
numerous feed extraction issues

They're are still one of my favorite guns. The design is solid, but EAA is a piece of crap company. If another importer picks them up, I'll buy them again.

 

[VinnyT]

I have both. The EAA in polymer/steel and the G20. Both have 15 rd mags. They both shoot about the same(accuracy-wise). I'm sure the G20 will hold up a lot longer. I carry the EAA because I have the most target time with it. Had no problems with it so far. V.

 

[Dave P]

I picked up a Witness match recently - its great! Wanna buy a sig226/357sig?!?

 

[jeepmor]

Witness

I bought a full size 10mm Witness in Wonderfinish recently and love it. I'm not a glock fan due to the trigger and I have a DAO pistol already. Plus, I don't like Glocks feel in my hand, so it's personal preference. The witness is lacking in finish compared to the Glocks, no doubt about that. But it's a tank and appears to be built to take a heavy dose of abuse from the 10mm round.

I like the witness because it is a heavy full size pistol and it shoots nicely and is quite accurate out of the box. Mine is anyhow. I like the DA/SA action because it makes followup shots quite quick and is easier to stay on target for that second tap. Maybe that's just the weight compared to my compact 45 in DAO.

I chose 10mm because I reload, otherwise, I'd skip it due to ammo availability. Also, I cannot find anyone that loads it to potential besides double tap and ?texas arms? Which means, it's an expensive .40 round that you have to order through the mail, adding shipping cost.

However, as a reloader, I plan on working up loads that will push that 180 grainer at least 1200+ fps instead of the 1000fps offerings everyone seems to have, with the exclusion of Double Tap of course.

jeepmor

 

[atblis]

Only 1200 fps

That's cake. With 800X, ~1380 is feasible.

 

[michiganfan]

Get the Glock. I have a G20 now and I had a Witness. The Witness had problems none of my Glocks have problems. There is not much recoil with the G20.

 

[John C]

One of the big advantages of a Witness is the availability of conversion kits to shoot .45, 9mm, .40, .357 sig, and .22lr from the same receiver. I bought a .45 acp Witness last year, and later picked up a 10mm upper for it. I'm looking around for .22 lr upper, as well. It's a very versatile pistol.

-John C

 

[MG42mann]

Recoil

In response to the "Kick" on glocks. If I am correct, the Glock 20 has a bigger/wider frame then 1911's, so therefore you have more surface area to absorb more recoil. I.e. forcing a balloon on one nail vs. forcing a balloon on 2 dozen nails together.

I shot a compact Glock .45 w/wide frame, and was impressed with the low recoil vs. the recoil on my .45 1911A1. (But I only shoot .45's through 1911's because I am a man)

So in conclusion, the G20 shouldn't kick that bad.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

In response to the "Kick" on glocks. If I am correct, the Glock 20 has a bigger/wider frame then 1911's, so therefore you have more surface area to absorb more recoil. I.e. forcing a balloon on one nail vs. forcing a balloon on 2 dozen nails together.

I shot a compact Glock .45 w/wide frame, and was impressed with the low recoil vs. the recoil on my .45 1911A1. (But I only shoot .45's through 1911's because I am a man)

So in conclusion, the G20 shouldn't kick that bad.

It doesn't. My experience is similar to yours. The wide grip, its angle, and the recoil characteristics of the frame material lead to very little felt recoil. The low bore axis does a good job of controlling muzzle flip so recoil is mostly directed straight back and easily absorbed by the arms and upper body. Even with full power loads, my Glock 20 is much more comfortable to shoot than the .45 ACP in a 1911. If you have big enough hands to agree with the grip on the Glock, its geometry actually treats the shooter very well.