I overlooked the 7x57

[cdb1]

Just a couple towns over a 699 pound black bear was shot. Maine record. I would want to shoot him with enough gun if the opportunity arose.

I wouldn’t feel undergunned on a black bear that size with a .280 or a 7x57.

 

[horsey300]

I wouldn’t feel undergunned on a black bear that size with a .280 or a 7x57.

Anything less than .30 cal ain't enough for something bigger than Bambi, cuz 'Murica!

 

[cdb1]

Anything less than .30 cal ain't enough for something bigger that Bambi, cuz 'Murica!

Yep.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Killing elephants with 7x57 FMJ is like killing bear with a 22. There are numerous cases of it happening, but it's because it's what they had.

Karamojo Bell used a .275 Rigby by choice. He was recoil sensitive and hated the recoil of the traditional British big bore rifles. He spent much time and effort figuring out where the brain of an elephant was located within the skull then spent more time figuring out how to hit it from any angle using a .256 Manlicher using 160 Gr solids and a .275 Rigby using 173 Gr cupronickel solids. He figured out frontal, side and rear brain shots using these two deep penetrating rounds with solid bullets. He also used a .400 NE when he did follow up work in thick brush.

He claimed something over 1100 elephants using these small bore rifles. Fast forward 40 to 50 years and African cropping rangers were also killing elephants by the thousands using .308 rifles and FMJ military ball ammo with frontal and side brain shots. Kevin Thomas killed over 4,000 as did Richard Harland of the Rhodesian Parks service. They used a variety of rifles but many of their elephants were killed with FN FAL rifles usung using ball ammo.

The trick is using a solid bullet in a caliber with just enough penetration and knowing where the brain is and how to hit it from any angle. A side brain shot on an elephant does not take all that much penetration to get it done. The problem comes if your attempted brain shot wasn’t perfect.

 

[Jessesky]

A 7mm Mauser in a modern bolt gun has that cool nostalgia factor too.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Karamojo Bell used a .275 Rigby by choice. He was recoil sensitive and hated the recoil of the traditional British big bore rifles. He spent much time and effort figuring out where the brain of an elephant was located within the skull then spent more time figuring out how to hit it from any angle using a .256 Manlicher using 160 Gr solids and a .275 Rigby using 173 Gr cupronickel solids. He figured out frontal, side and rear brain shots using these two deep penetrating rounds with solid bullets. He also used a .400 NE when he did follow up work in thick brush.

He claimed something over 1100 elephants using these small bore rifles. Fast forward 40 to 50 years and African cropping rangers were also killing elephants by the thousands using .308 rifles and FMJ military ball ammo with frontal and side brain shots. Kevin Thomas killed over 4,000 as did Richard Harland of the Rhodesian Parks service. They used a variety of rifles but many of their elephants were killed with FN FAL rifles usung using ball ammo.

The trick is using a solid bullet in a caliber with just enough penetration and knowing where the brain is and how to hit it from any angle. A side brain shot on an elephant does not take all that much penetration to get it done. The problem comes if your attempted brain shot wasn’t perfect.

I read about that when I was a kid. Just because you can dig a basement with a sand bucket and shovel doesn't mean you are using the proper tool.
I'm not trying to cut down the 7x57 in any way. I think it's an often overlooked cartridge because saami decided to neuter it just like all the other European cartridges of that era.

 

[rbernie]

I took my first deer with a 1895 Chilean Mauser in 7x57, and I've always had quite a soft spot for it. But honesty compels me to admit that I don't find the recoil difference between a 150gr-165gr 30-06 and a 140gr-170gr 7x57 to be particularly noticeable. When I wanted a bolt gun that was less punchy than a 30-06 but still field-suitable, I dropped to a quarter bore.

 

[Newtosavage]

The 7 Mauser is a mid-length cartridge, the M77 will be a long action. Very hard combination to beat though. Really nothing it will do the 7-08 won't, and unless you're reloading your own, the 7-08 may surpass the anemic factory 7x57 loads.

I started out with the 7x57 in the Ruger 77, and 2 years later ended up with a Tikka 7mm-08. I wanted the "nostalgia" factor of the 7x57 but it turned out to be a bit of a pain, sadly, for various reasons. I'm thoroughly happy with my 7mm-08 choice. IMO it is one of the top 5 hunting calibers ever created and, while this may tick some folks off by saying this, knowing what I know now, I have no idea why someone who handloads would choose the .308 as a hunting rifle over the 7mm-08. The 7mm-08 is better in just about every imaginable way.

If you're looking for a great hunting caliber with less recoil than the '06, you won't do any better than the twin of the one the '06 was based on.

 

[Newtosavage]

I read about that when I was a kid. Just because you can dig a basement with a sand bucket and shovel doesn't mean you are using the proper tool.
I'm not trying to cut down the 7x57 in any way. I think it's an often overlooked cartridge because saami decided to neuter it just like all the other European cartridges of that era.

And just because a Cat 374F will dig that basement quicker, that doesn't mean a JD120 isn't still more than enough tool for the job.

I just don't get the "bigger is always better" crowd.

 

[mgmorden]

Elephants in Africa.

Didn't Mojo Bell poach/kill dozens of them (hit in the temple) with a typical European 7x57 rifle in the early 20th Century?

Such feats generally just show that with shot placement bullet size/power doesn't matter a whole lot, rather than showing any particular strength of the 7mm Mauser over other rounds. The same animals would have also fallen to 7mm-08, 6.5 Creedmoor, .270 Win, etc.

 

[cdb1]

My understanding is one of the main reasons Bell used a 7x57 over other cartridges was that solid cartridges for it were readily available and they were about the only bullets he could find that gave the penetration needed to reach an elephants brain. So I’d say mgmorden is correct.

 

[H&Hhunter]

My understanding is one of the main reasons Bell used a 7x57 over other cartridges was that solid cartridges for it were readily available and they were about the only bullets he could find that gave the penetration needed to reach an elephants brain. So I’d say mgmorden is correct.

Bell’s success had very little to do with the capabilities of the .275 Rigby and a lot to do with his study of elephant anatomy and shooting ability. Of the elephants that he killed a large percentage were with the .256 which people tend to completely overlook.

As mentioned above once you know where to put your bullet military ball in a .308 does just fine. Most of the parks guys started with a .404 or a .458 and after they had 100 or so brain shot kills in elephant were allowed to transition to FN FAL’s.

In other words don’t try small bore elephant hunting until you have a bit of knowledge and experience with the brain shot. I’m here to tell you it’s way harder than it looks.

 

[Llama Bob]

The problem comes if your attempted brain shot wasn’t perfect.

Or just gets hung up on bone. If you read what Bell wrote, he complained of "unexplained misses" - of course given the size of an elephant it's unlikely he missed it entirely. They could be better termed failures of terminal performance.

The situation got better later on when he switched to a bigger gun.

A reasonable minimum for a client rifle on elephant is .375 H&H. A reasonable minimum for a game control rifle is .404J.

 

[LoonWulf]

You know, one of those things I love about THR is reading a good thread is like taking a walk down an unknown path.
You get down a ways, and look back and go....how did i get here? Then keep walking. So far ive crossed two continents in search of game ill likely never see.
Enjoyable thread guys, I be learnin stuff!

 

[Llama Bob]

In other words don’t try small bore elephant hunting until you have a bit of knowledge and experience with the brain shot. I’m here to tell you it’s way harder than it looks.

And doesn't work consistently no matter how often it's tried.

 

[Offfhand]

Every serious rifleman deserves at least one 7X57 during their hunting/shooting careers. A great beginning for the 7x57 is a milsurp. M-98 or one of the Mauser variations. This one was built on a 1909 Argentine action with metal and stock work done by Al Bieson quite a few years ago. It has been my only rifle on a couple of African hunts, with the 150 grain Nosler Partition loaded to 2800fps being about right for plains game and tough to kill zebra.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Or just gets hung up on bone. If you read what Bell wrote, he complained of "unexplained misses" - of course given the size of an elephant it's unlikely he missed it entirely. They could be better termed failures of terminal performance.

The situation got better later on when he switched to a bigger gun.

A reasonable minimum for a client rifle on elephant is .375 H&H. A reasonable minimum for a game control rifle is .404J.

Bells early unexplained misses were the bullet simply missing the brain. An elephant has a honeycomb skull structure. A bullet passing through the honeycomb skull structure will not knock out an elephant unless it gets very close to the brain.

The bigger and heavier the bullet the further from the brain it can be and still knock an elephant out. A .375 H&H has almost no knock out ability on an elephant. So while it is a legal minimum in many countries if you are going to do some elephant hunting especially in thick country like the Zambezi Valley it might be a good idea to use something larger in diameter.

A .375 has plenty of penetration with a 300 Gr solid. But you as a neophyte elephant hunter will not have the experience on elephant to know exactly how to find the brain in all situations and angles.

As far as cropping officers using .404 Jeffery’s I’d agree with using a .40 cal or larger however. The .404 while once the most commonly issued parks caliber. Has not been used since the early 80’s when Kynoch quit making ammo for it. They have all been replaced with .458 Win simply due to ammo and rifle availability.

You’d be hard pressed to find a serviceable .404 in any parks department in Africa today.

 

[Jim Watson]

Layne Simpson wrote:
Hunter: "Took a dozen shots to down that buffalo."
Simpson: "Shooting a .375, were you?"
Hunter: "Yes, how did you know?"

 

[H&Hhunter]

And doesn't work consistently no matter how often it's tried.

I’d have to disagree with that statement in regards to a highly seasoned professional elephant shooter. As mentioned above once a guy gets a goodly number of head shots under his belt and figures out where the brain is a small bore using a solid bullet becomes extremely effective.

Of course there are very few if any hunters in today's world who have the minimum 100 or so elephant kills that parks used to consider a minimum before they allowed the transition to small bores for cropping work. And there sure as heck are not any that have the thousands of kills that the old time cropping officers did.

There are absolutely no sport hunters that have anywhere near that experience on elephant.

 

[Llama Bob]

And yet Bell continued to have problems until he switched to his Westley Richards. So it clearly didn't work so well for him.

 

[Robert]

Real world experience beats the internet any day of the week.

 

[MistWolf]

That's a beautiful rifle. Mauser actions sized for the 57mm case are the best for making 7x57 rifles. The 1909 Argentine is my absolute favorite. My father gave me a 1909 rebarreled to 6mm Remington when I was 12. My son has it now.

 

[H&Hhunter]

And yet Bell continued to have problems until he switched to his Westley Richards. So it clearly didn't work so well for him.

I guess I’m not understanding what you are saying as his WR was chambered in .275 Rigby? And he killed hundreds of elephants with it

 

[Varminterror]

I wouldn’t feel undergunned on a black bear that size with a .280 or a 7x57.

Fully agree with this - at least for hunting. I don’t expect a defensive encounter with a Bruin, so the call on the field stands. 7 maus is more than enough for this task. Quite likely ideal.

 

[BigBore44]

So the logic I’m seeing is that an ‘06 isn’t enough for a 700lb Black bear. But it’s likely killed more 900-1200lb elk than any other cartridge. And there’s an argument that the 7 Mauser with solids killed 1000’s of elephant. But the 375 H&H with solids is barely minimal.

Maybe I’m just tired. But something about this doesn’t make sense to me.

While recoil may be a little more stout, there’s a reason for that. Heavier bullets require more powder to achieve the same velocity as lighter bullets. The 7mm may have a better sectional density. But the .30’s can handle heavier bullets and create larger wounds. And should that 700lb Black bear step out, recoil from that ‘06 will be the very last thing on your mind.