I Tricked buying Ammo

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shotgunjoel

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So today I was at the big gun show in Indianapolis at the fairgrounds. I was looking for a few things, including 7.62 NATO. I approached a dealer with a bunch of ammo. He had some bandoleers of Radway Green $40 for 75 rds. He had German, 200 rounds to a can, for $95. I checked out a can that he had open and the headstamp was DAG, and was clean stuff. So I bought a can and he handed me one from under the table. I opened it up, looked it over quickly and all seemed fine and paid for it.

Well, I got it home and started looking at it. I pulled out a handful of rounds, and noticed that there was ammo in the bottom with copper jackets! (DAG had copper-nickel jackets, FWIW) This annoyed me, then I looked closer at the 'DAG' and some of it was headstamped "DAG93A0301" with the NATO cross, and some of it was stamped "MEN94H0010" with the NATO cross. So in this one can of ammo I have at least 3 different makes! I sorted out the top part of the can (all copper-nickel jackets) and came up with 60 rounds of DAG, of which 5 have some corrosion. The rest of that layer was the MEN headstamp. Then I started looking at the copper jacketed stuff in the bottom. It's headstamped "A81" at the top, and "7.62 R1M1" at the bottom. I looked up the headstamp and found it to be South African (I guessed that from the reddish primer sealer).

So, I buy what I think is 200 of DAG, and end up with 140 rounds of German, 60 of 1993 DAG, and 80 of 1994 MEN. Then there is the 60 rounds of 1981 South African. Now I've heard that the South African is considered to be good stuff, but I'm ticked at the dealer for selling me a mixed bag, not as advertised. It isn't practical for me to go back to the guy tomorrow, I live 2 hours from the show, and he'd just tell me that he sold me all DAG and not believe me. I don't remember what the company is and didn't get their card or I'd at least call them and complain. I think that tomorrow I'll try to call the promoter of the show and tell him what happened.

Two last questions; first, can I consider both of the German loads (Dag and MEN) to be the same for all intents and purposes? Second, did I actually come out ahead in this deal? Thanks, sorry for the length.
Joel
 
it sounds like you're being WAY too picky about the ammo. It's NATO standard 7.62. There is way too much emphasis put on WHERE it originated. It's surplus ammo, and will shoot very very similarly across the board. The performance/accuracy of the round has much more to do with you pulling the trigger than anything else.

I fail to see how you got a bad deal. Are you aware of how expensive commercial .308 is? The ammo you bought was less than 50 cents per round.
 
A couple things that I forgot. For anyone who went to, or is going to the Indy show, the booth was in the narrow room to the right, and the dealer was along the the front wall. if you went in the door and turned right into that side room he was right there on the right side. I think that it was the north-east corner, not sure though.
Also, is any of this stuff reloadable?
 
Did the guy in the north-east corner represent his product as benchrest ammo?
 
did I actually come out ahead in this deal?
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i think you paid a fair market price for what you bought. remington corelocs would have run you about 2 hunerd w/o the can and thats not a premium round IMO.
plus, you inspected the purchase prior to buying. could the seller have been more honest in representation? perhaps. regardless of the NATO cross i dought they all fly to the same POI. it's like firing different lots of ammo. it will not be the same. it will be close. mostly.
 
i think you paid a fair market price for what you bought. remington corelocs would have run you about 2 hunerd w/o the can and thats not a premium round IMO.
plus, you inspected the purchase prior to buying. could the seller have been more honest in representation? perhaps. regardless of the NATO cross i dought they all fly to the same POI. it's like firing different lots of ammo. it will not be the same. it will be close. mostly.
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Yes I realize that it is much cheaper than new production 308 ammo, and I'm glad for that. As a note, the South African is not NATO cross, not that that really matters (They weren't/aren't NATO). The difference in POI was my main concern with it, that's why I wondered if the 2 German loads would be essentially the same. I also I'm just a little annoyed that the seller wasn't honest. Next time I will check a few headstamps and try to see what's on the bottom. Also, sorry for the screwed up title, I changed what it said, but forgot to delete the "I".
 
Your point of impact with any of the three types of ammo shouldn't vary more than 1/2" at most. If you are looking for consistently impacting rounds then you need to reload your own rounds, as even military surplus of the same type can have varying degrees of accuracy from the same lot, but usually not much.

My complaint would be that South African surplus isn't reloadable although I'm not sure the German stuff is, I suspect the German (Nato) brass is reloadable though.
 
I would be annoyed, too, because you didn't get what was represented to you as being sold. On the other hand, none of it is bad stuff and the price would have to be considered fair for any of it. Now if you dug down and found 80's (or was it 90's) Indian you would have a real complaint. Just say grrr and go ahead and enjoy shooting it.

John
 
IMO, if you are buying surplus ammo, especially in such a package, you get what you pay for - surplus. Worried about a big enough difference with POI on surplus? :rolleyes: Not buying match stuff here. You want to be particular about it, you take the time before and check it all over.
 
Bottom line is you bought 3 of the most common and most reliable types of surplus NATO ammo in x51. You paid 47.5 cents a round which is pretty close to market price. I have seen DAG for 44 cents a round recently so you are right in there.

Did you get exactly what you thought you were buying? No. Did you make a bad purchase? No, I wouldn't think so.

As for shooting the 3 I use all those regularly and frankly I can't tell the difference in either point of impact or reliability. All shoots about the same for me.

In the great universe of dishonesty at gun shows I'd say yours is about as small as they get. Personally I wouldn't call the promotor or anything like that, I just wouldn't buy from the same people again without closer inspection.
 
While I think it is a little messed up, you didn't really lose on the deal, all 3 are very decent surplus.

The worst I ever saw was at a show where there were .30 cal ammo cans labeled Australian 7.62 (and lid wired shut) but full of OFV bandoleers.:what:

OFV = Indian.:barf:

Caused quite a ruckus, and several ticked off people getting refunds when a guy (me) whipped out his leatherman, cut the wire and opened the thing after paying for it. :fire:

While not as advertised, you still did ok.
 
Bovice said:
it sounds like you're being WAY too picky about the ammo. It's NATO standard 7.62. There is way too much emphasis put on WHERE it originated. It's surplus ammo, and will shoot very very similarly across the board. The performance/accuracy of the round has much more to do with you pulling the trigger than anything else.

I fail to see how you got a bad deal. Are you aware of how expensive commercial .308 is? The ammo you bought was less than 50 cents per round.
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Not all surplus 308 is created equal
 
Simply separate it out in sub lots...that way, you'll have the same POI no matter what, and when you run out of one sub lot, go to the next, and adjust [if it's even necessary] from there.
 
Live and learn. Ask more questions next time. Sounds like you did fine though.
 
I would be annoyed, too, because you didn't get what was represented to you as being sold. On the other hand, none of it is bad stuff and the price would have to be considered fair for any of it. Now if you dug down and found 80's (or was it 90's) Indian you would have a real complaint. Just say grrr and go ahead and enjoy shooting it.
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Like you said, I was mostly annoyed in the end. When I first saw the copper jacketed stuff in the bottom I thought "crap, Indian junk".
I'm not going to call the show, it doesn't really matter. I will try to find that dealer again, inspect it there in front of him, and call him out if it's another mixed box. maybe he'll knock down the price $10, never know. He wouldn't want me telling other people buying what he was doing...
 
remington corelocs would have run you about 2 hunerd w/o the can and thats not a premium round IMO.
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I'm not sure what you are saying here. The Remington Core-Lokt is not a match round, but what is 2 hunerd?
 
Might have missed it but in case it wasn't mentioned previously, the DAG and MEN are different German factories producing the same (or at least similar) stuff (and that corrosion mentioned earlier is probably from the paper boxes used to package the ammo, seen lot's of it in the MEN). This is very good stuff, and the SA is very good as well, just known for being hotter (speaking of POI). I hope your not putting this through a M1A, like the Port. I've heard how it's a little too hot for the M-14 system, fine for FAL's (of course) and the various G3 clones/derivatives, just not M1A's.

Don't know about the dealer's "mistake" though, could be an honest mistake. Ammo dealers at a show won't last too long pulling this kind b.s. on a regular basis, but mistakes do happen.

I've also heard that the SA is on its last leg (supply-wise), and it was thought of to be quite good as far as surplus 7.62x51 goes, for the price-per-round you did just fine. And if I recall, none of it's reload-able, it's all berdan.
 
Might have missed it but in case it wasn't mentioned previously, the DAG and MEN are different German factories producing the same (or at least similar) stuff (and that corrosion mentioned earlier is probably from the paper boxes used to package the ammo, seen lot's of it in the MEN). This is very good stuff, and the SA is very good as well, just known for being hotter (speaking of POI).
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I figured that both of the German loads were to the same specs. I had read about the light corrosion being from the acidic cardboard on the German stuff. I had not heard that the SA was hotter, thanks for that info.
 
You know I read this one last night, but just passed it over. But the more I think about it the more I realize that being sold one thing, and given another would tick me off no end also. Sorry you can't do anything about it, but I get your point bud. Just the principal of the matter.
 
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