I was refused a gun

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i got the run around one time while i was home on leave. my license had expired (part of why i was home) and the state had changed, now they mail licenses and get you a piece of paper saying you have one. so i tried to get my purchasing permit with the expired on and the paper saying i have a current one. they said no so i tried my military ID, well then they decided i have to give them a copy of my orders saying that im stationed in florida (rawr!!!) luckily i had them back at the house.

then the gun dealer wasnt sure the sale would be allowed to go through and had to get the owner. but in the end my expired license, paper saying i have a current one, my military ID and my orders saying im not stationed in florida and not NC.......... just to get my gun
 
Grmlin Well that may be what it says but I'm giving first hand knowledge after 20 years in the military, my actual residency was my home state.

While on active duty you have all the privileges of a state resident even if your not, your military I.D. and orders give you those privileges. I had a state I.D for most states I lived in but was still a legal resident of my home state, used my original drivers license even after it had long expired, I still payed taxes and voted in my home state.

I also had two conceal carry permits for the state I lived and my home state.
Read the quote again......you are saying the same thing it does.

Note that a military buyer must be on permanent orders to that duty station, not temporary.

Example: An active duty Air Force pilot who is a Texas resident, but with permanent orders to a base in Nevada, may acquire ANY firearm (handgun, long gun or other) in either Texas or Nevada. If he flys to Florida for a weekend training event, he is NOT considered a resident as that is a temporary duty station. It doesn't matter if he is active duty or not. Therefore he can only acquire rifles or shotguns while in a state other than Texas or Nevada.
 
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paintballdude902 i got the run around one time while i was home on leave. my license had expired (part of why i was home) and the state had changed, now they mail licenses and get you a piece of paper saying you have one. so i tried to get my purchasing permit with the expired on and the paper saying i have a current one. they said no so i tried my military ID, well then they decided i have to give them a copy of my orders saying that im stationed in florida (rawr!!!) luckily i had them back at the house.

then the gun dealer wasnt sure the sale would be allowed to go through and had to get the owner. but in the end my expired license, paper saying i have a current one, my military ID and my orders saying im not stationed in florida and not NC.......... just to get my gun
Its not a run around by the dealer.....he's complying with Federal law.
You can also pull up a copy of your permanant orders via the internet.......had a customer do that last summer.:D
 
You might be somewhat surprised how many Amish own handguns.
So what kinds of handguns to the Amish buy? Do they go crazy like everyone else over Glocks, or are they more walnut and steel S&W and 1911 people? I'd guess the later, but you never know.
Wouldn't it have to be cap-and-ball revolvers? ;)

Reminds me of a bad joke. Too bad to share, but I will anyway.
Q: What goes clip-clop, clip-clop, bang-bang, clip-clop, clip-clop, bang-bang, clip-clop, clip-clop?

A: Amish drive-by.
 
Read the quote again......you are saying the same thing it does.

Note that a military buyer must be on permanent orders to that duty station, not temporary.

Example: An active duty Air Force pilot who is a Texas resident, but with permanent orders to a base in Nevada, may acquire ANY firearm (handgun, long gun or other) in either Texas or Nevada. If he flys to Florida for a weekend training event, he is NOT considered a resident as that is a temporary duty station. It doesn't matter if he is active duty or not. Therefore he can only acquire rifles or shotguns while in a state other than Texas or Nevada.

Mr. Tom, you would be wrong in your example. For example, I have had a Wyoming Driver's License since 1982. I would not be able to legally buy a handgun from anyone or a rifle from a private party in Wyoming since 1988 because since 1988 (when I enlisted active duty in the Navy) I have never been present in Wyoming with the intention of making a home there. I have only returned to Wyoming on a visiting basis to visit family.

An active duty military member is a resident of the state they have permanent orders to, AND if they live in an adjoining state and commute to work every day, they are also a resident of the state they live in and go home to every night. Home of record (generally where a military member's drivers license is from) has NO BEARING on state of residence for firearms purchases.

This is on page 178 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide and is consistent with 27 CFR 478.11:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

(B11) What constitutes residency
in a State?
The State of residence is the State
in which an individual is present; the
individual also must have an intention
of making a home in that State. A
member of the Armed Forces on active
duty is a resident of the State in
which his or her permanent duty station
is located. If a member of the
Armed Forces maintains a home in
one State and the member’s permanent
duty station is in a nearby State
to which he or she commutes each
day, then the member has two States
of residence and may purchase a
firearm in either the State where the
duty station is located or the State
where the home is maintained.

In fact, my Wyoming driver's license has a Washington address on it because that is my state of residence because I both live here and have permanent orders here.

Well that may be what it says but I'm giving first hand knowledge after 20 years in the military, my actual residency was my home state.

While on active duty you have all the privileges of a state resident even if your not, your military I.D. and orders give you those privileges. I had a state I.D for most states I lived in but was still a legal resident of my home state, used my original drivers license even after it had long expired, I still payed taxes and voted in my home state.

I also had two conceal carry permits for the state I lived and my home state.

Your 20 years of military experience does not negate what Federal law says. In regards to purchasing firearms from a Federal Firearms Licensee and from a private party - what your home of record state is and what state your driver's license is from has NO BEARING whatsoever on what your state of residence is for the purposes of firearms transactions. There are two things that define state of residence in Federal law for firearms transactions: 1. Physical presence in a state with the intention of making a home in that state and/or 2. Active duty permanent military orders to a state. Period.

Can you go into a gun shop in your home of record state and buy a gun using your home state driver's license? Sure you can. But you might be committing a Federal crime in doing so when you lie on the form 4473 and say you are resident of that state when you do not meet either definition above for state of residency.

I've got 27 years of military experience, BTW. I was in the Army National Guard of Wyoming and Kansas from 1984 to 1988 and active duty Navy since 1988.
 
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@dogtown tom,

Guess I was just being to literal in my interpretation. Must be time for me to go to sleep.
I never had any problems purchasing firearms anywhere I was stationed, it was actually harder in the state I was a legal resident and had my original conceal carry license. One reason I never moved back.

@dogtown tom, Good example and acurate. That was my expierence during my service.
 
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Watched an Amish buy a shottie the other day, I believe he was goin' Turkey hunting. He pulled out a state issued ID card. Our DMV issues them for free.

You are so correct, but usually they op out for the picture ID.

So what kinds of handguns to the Amish buy? Do they go crazy like everyone else over Glocks, or are they more walnut and steel S&W and 1911 people? I'd guess the later, but you never know.

Many will buy a revolver in a magnum caliber ie; 44 mag for hunting but then many others buy revolvers & autos just the same as the rest of us.
 
Uh, nope.
I made no mention of living in a third state nor anything about a drivers license..........those were in YOUR example.

It's in black and white what you posted:

Example: An active duty Air Force pilot who is a Texas resident, but with permanent orders to a base in Nevada, may acquire ANY firearm (handgun, long gun or other) in either Texas or Nevada.

How does an Air Force pilot commute back and forth every day from Texas to Nevada? How does the Air Force pilot with permanent orders to Nevada maintain a physical presence in Texas with the intention of making a home in Texas? Just because his/her home of record is Texas and they keep a Texas driver's license does NOT make them a Texas resident for the purposes of firearms transactions. Federal law requires PRESENCE in a state with the intention of making a home there. A driver's license is not a PRESENCE. I have a Wyoming driver's license and have not maintained a PRESENCE there for more than about 3 weeks total in 23 years and none of that 3 weeks presence there was with the intention of making a home there. I would be lying on the form 4473 if I claimed Wyoming as my state of residence, even though I have a Wyoming Driver's license, registered to vote in Wyoming and pay no state taxes because Wyoming is my home of record state.

Now, if you said a person was a resident of Utah, lived in Utah, and had orders to Nevada where they commuted to every day, it would be possible.

@dogtown tom,

Guess I was just being to literal in my interpretation. Must be time for me to go to sleep.
I never had any problems purchasing firearms anywhere I was stationed, it was actually harder in the state I was a legal resident and had my original conceal carry license. One reason I never moved back.

@dogtown tom, Good example and acurate. That was my expierence during my service.

Too bad it conflicts with Federal law. No where in Federal law is home of record, driver's license or concealed carry license mentioned as establishing what a person's actual and current state of residence is for the purposes of firearms transactions.

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.
Thats incorrect while in the Military on active duty, your state of residence is were you resided before entering the service, unless you change it. You have the same privileges as a resident because of your active duty status but do not pay that states taxes and depending on your home state your drivers license will remain valid untill 60 days past your EAS.

I love how you claim that is incorrect Grmlin, when it is word for word quoted from Federal regulations 27 CFR 478.11. Look it up for yourself, I'll help you:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27
 
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NavyLCDR

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Example: An active duty Air Force pilot who is a Texas resident, but with permanent orders to a base in Nevada, may acquire ANY firearm (handgun, long gun or other) in either Texas or Nevada.
How does an Air Force pilot commute back and forth every day from Texas to Nevada?
Who said he commuted back and forth every day?:scrutiny:
Not me.

How does the Air Force pilot with permanent orders to Nevada maintain a physical presence in Texas with the intention of making a home in Texas? Just because his/her home of record is Texas and they keep a Texas driver's license does NOT make them a Texas resident for the purposes of firearms transactions. Federal law requires PRESENCE in a state with the intention of making a home there.
You have difficulty understanding that your experiences differ from other active military.

You also have difficulty with what Federal law allows as far as "state of residence". You can copy and paste all day long, but unless you know what it means your post is meaningless.;)

Without divulging too much information, the example I gave happens to be a customer of mine. His wife, kids and home are here in Texas, but his permanent orders have him at a base out of state. He DOES commute back and forth, but not daily.

His ability to have more than one state of residence is no different than a college student......who per ATF are residents of their home state while living there....and residents of another state while attending college and living there.

While YOU may disagree, ATF doesn't.;)



A driver's license is not a PRESENCE. I have a Wyoming driver's license and have not maintained a PRESENCE there for more than about 3 weeks total in 23 years and none of that 3 weeks presence there was with the intention of making a home there. I would be lying on the form 4473 if I claimed Wyoming as my state of residence, even though I have a Wyoming Driver's license, registered to vote in Wyoming and pay no state taxes because Wyoming is my home of record state.
Again, only you brought up "drivers license". If you take the time to read a 4473 you'll note that it asks for the buyers current residence address AS WELL AS "state of residence"..........ATF knows that it is possible to have two different states listed.

Whether you have a drivers license from a state where you don't live is immaterial to my example.
 
I think we are on the same page now. In the example you provided of the active duty military person with orders to Nevada... you would be correct that he can also be a resident of Texas due to this fact that you did not divulge in the example you first provided:

Without divulging too much information, the example I gave happens to be a customer of mine. His wife, kids and home are here in Texas, but his permanent orders have him at a base out of state. He DOES commute back and forth, but not daily.

Your customer, in this case, actually maintains a real physical presence in Texas with a home there and because he spends part of the year actually living there, vice only visiting, during the times he lives in Texas he is considered a Texas resident by Federal law. During the times he lives in Nevada, he is a Nevada resident by Federal law. Heck, he could even maintain an apartment in Utah, and if he commuted back and forth between Nevada and Utah, when he wasn't in Texas, he could have 3 states of residence.

You have difficulty understanding that your experiences differ from other active military.

Having spent 27 years in the military and being acquainted with thousands of military members over those years I would say that my experience in the military is far more common than the example you provided. Probably 95% of personnel who have orders to a different state other than their home of record state maintain no real physical presence in their home of record state for the purpose of living in. They may continue to own a home in their home of record state but rent it out. They may have father/mother/siblings in their home of record state, but only visit them on a temporary basis with no real home there to actually live in. In those cases, even though the military member has a driver's license from their home of record state, it would be illegal for them to purchase firearms (except for rifles/shotguns from FFLs) in their home of record states.

You also have difficulty with what Federal law allows as far as "state of residence". You can copy and paste all day long, but unless you know what it means your post is meaningless.;)

Federal law is very clear and plain on what a State of Residence is for the purposes of firearms transactions. When it goes to court, what is written in the Federal law and the way the judge you are standing before interprets it is what determines whether or not you will go to jail or walk away. I would rather post what the actual Federal law says all day long than make one post of unsubstantiated opinion such as Grmlin did when he said my definition of State of Residence was incorrect when I quoted it word for word straight from Federal Regulations.

His ability to have more than one state of residence is no different than a college student......who per ATF are residents of their home state while living there....and residents of another state while attending college and living there.

While YOU may disagree, ATF doesn't.;)

I do agree. Absolutely. The problem is when people take that definition and attempt to extend it to their military home of record state when they maintain no presence in their home of record with the intention of making a home there.

Again, only you brought up "drivers license". If you take the time to read a 4473 you'll note that it asks for the buyers current residence address AS WELL AS "state of residence"..........ATF knows that it is possible to have two different states listed.

Whether you have a drivers license from a state where you don't live is immaterial to my example.

Again, we absolutely agree on that.
 
None of this matters if you buy from a private seller, instead of a FFL dealer. Private sellers aren't legally required to verify your age, residence, ID, criminal record, or any of that BS. Just a good old fashioned cash deal. Check out www.armslist.com and find somebody close by with something you want, and make arrangements to meet up.
 
And likely to stay that way!

"In 2006, the US Supreme Court held in Crawford v. Marion County Election Board that Indiana's voter ID law — which was among the most stringent in the country at the time — passed constitutional muster as a general matter, and that it was unlawful only if there was actual evidence that the requirement deprived certain people from voting. Under this ruling, unless there is stark evidence of disparities, photo identification laws are valid under the US Constitution." - http://jurist.org/forum/2012/04/joshua-douglas-voter-id.php

Apparently states like Wisconsin need to modernize their constitutions.
 
I went to a gun store friday and wanted to buy a gun. I do not have a current drivers license. The store said I have to have a drivers license to buy a gun. They refused to sell me the gun So in Texas do you have to have a drivers license to buy a gun? I do not think that is right.
You'd have been passed through unobstructed if you'd been an illegal alien heading into the polling booth.
 
Well that may be what it says but I'm giving first hand knowledge after 20 years in the military, my actual residency was my home state.

While on active duty you have all the privileges of a state resident even if your not, your military I.D. and orders give you those privileges. I had a state I.D for most states I lived in but was still a legal resident of my home state, used my original drivers license even after it had long expired, I still payed taxes and voted in my home state.

I also had two conceal carry permits for the state I lived and my home state.

Similar background. The way it was explained to me is that if I had a local ID I could purchase firearms as a resident of that state per the 4473 while still being considered a legal resident of my home state for tax/voting etc.
 
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