If you need proof of residence to buy guns or ammo....

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TN has just recently started the Real ID thing... or at least they only recently started talking about it. I need to get mine updated so that I can fly.
 
A utility bill can only be used as proof of residency if the utility company is government-run.

Wrong. Utilities are government regulated. And utilities send you a bill. It ties back to if you get your mail at an in-state residence, it is a tie to the state. By a residency standpoint. It is why I was able to use my wireless phone bill sent to an in state address to buy firearms. I had other documents but the bill helped.
 
You’re right, it’s not. The ATF says you can’t use a PO box as your residence. That makes sense because it’s hard to live in a PO box :).
No, it is legal. No Federal law says a state must only use a residence address on a drivers license.
In Texas, it is quite common for judges, DA's and other LE to have their drivers license show the courthouse address.
That means........the buyer still has to put his current residence address on the 4473, but must provide additional government issued documentation that shows his name and that current residence address.
 
No, it is legal. No Federal law says a state must only use a residence address on a drivers license.
In Texas, it is quite common for judges, DA's and other LE to have their drivers license show the courthouse address.
That means........the buyer still has to put his current residence address on the 4473, but must provide additional government issued documentation that shows his name and that current residence address.
I agree 100%. I was unclear in that post: I never meant to imply that you can’t have a PO Box on your license, only that you can’t use that PO Box as your residence on the 4473.
 
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Wrong. Utilities are government regulated. And utilities send you a bill. It ties back to if you get your mail at an in-state residence, it is a tie to the state. By a residency standpoint. It is why I was able to use my wireless phone bill sent to an in state address to buy firearms. I had other documents but the bill helped.
Wrong?:rofl:
Oh good grief. You are soooooo wrong..... as is the idiot dealer who let you walk out with that gun.
1. "Government regulated"........doesn't mean jack squat. Lots of businesses are "government regulated"....like Jiffy Lube, McDonald's and 7-11.
2. ATF regulations require a "government issued" document. Your wireless phone bill is not a government issued document.
3. As stated on the Form 4473, if the buyer/transferees government issued photo ID does not show the buyers current residence address, additional GOVERNMENT ISSUED documentation that shows name and current address may be used.
4. READ THE INSTRUCTIONS.
 
Did you read post #15 where I quoted the ATF directly? Lots of things are regulated by the government. But the ATF specifically requires all proofs of residency to be government issued.

I did. There are also regulations past page 2 on the ATF 4473 that give FFL instructions on what qualifies as documentation for an in state sale with an out of state ID.

" Current Residence Address: A rural route (RR) may be accepted provided the transferee/buyer lives in a State or locality where it is considered a legal residence address. County and Parish are one and the same. If the transferee/buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty, his/her State of residence is the State in which his/her permanent duty station is located. If the service member is acquiring a firearm in a State where his/her permanent duty station is located, but resides in a different State, the transferee/buyer must list both his/her permanent duty station address and his/her residence address in response to question 2. If the transferee/buyer has two States of residence, the transferee/buyer should list his/her current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if the transferee/buyer is purchasing a firearm while staying at his/her weekend home in State X, he/she should list the address in State X in response to question 2).

The ATF offers clarification on a FAQ on the website

"For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a state in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that state. The state of residence for a corporation or other business entity is the state where it maintains a place of business."
[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a)(3), and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.11]

In a 19 page memo from the ATF to the Treasury department outlines it more.

"This temporary rule amends the regulations to provide for a firearms purchaser's affirmative statement of his or her State of residence on ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) and ATF Form5300.35 (Statement of Intent to Obtain a Handgun) in acquiring a firearm from a Federal firearms licensee. The temporary rule also amends the regulations to require that aliens purchasing a firearm provide proof of residency through the use of substantiating documentation, such as utility bills or a lease agreement. In addition,the regulations are being amended to require that licensees examine a photo identification document from aliens purchasing firearms. Finally,the definition of ``State of residence'' is being amended to eliminate the language allowing aliens to establish residency by obtaining a letter from their embassy or consulate. The definition is also being amended to define more clearly ``State of residence.'' These regulations implement President Clinton's March 5, 1997, announcement of firearms initiatives intended to protect the American public fromgun violence. The temporary rule will remain in effect until superseded by final regulations.In the same separate part of this Federal Register, ATF is also issuing a notice of proposed rule making inviting comments on the temporary rule for a 90-day period following the publication date of this temporary rule

https://www.atf.gov/file/84321/download

Long term out of state stays ie for education, classify as a residency exemption.
 
I did. There are also regulations past page 2 on the ATF 4473 that give FFL instructions on what qualifies as documentation for an in state sale with an out of state ID.
None of what you linked in your post has anything do with what I’m talking about, and the part you bolded is a different issue dealing with aliens purchasing firearms.

I’ve provided direct instructions from the 4473 saying that if your drivers license doesn’t have your current address on it, you need to provide a government-issued document showing your current address. How is a bill from a private utility company a government-issued document?
 
None of what you linked in your post has anything do with what I’m talking about, and the part you bolded is a different issue dealing with aliens purchasing firearms.

So in your mind the residency requirement that allows aliens to buy firearms from a foreign country here doesn't apply to citizens across state lines? Makes no sense at all.

I’ve provided direct instructions from the 4473 saying that if your drivers license doesn’t have your current address on it, you need to provide a government-issued document showing your current address. How is a bill from a private utility company a “government-issued document”?

A utility bill is not a government issued document. That is the whole point. Documents from utilities, services, contracts provide residency exemptions. Using your logic there would be no firearm sales for stationed military personnel, college students etc because of the "government issued" requirement that is not set in stone.
 
So in your mind the residency requirement that allows aliens to buy firearms from a foreign country here doesn't apply to citizens across state lines? Makes no sense at all.
What exactly are you talking about here? This has nothing to do with people buying guns across state lines. This simply has to do with people who no longer live at the address listed on their photo ID. They could have moved 5 states away or just down the block.

A utility bill is not a government issued document. That is the whole point.
OK, you’re not making any sense to me at all. So then why would the 4473 say that your proof of residence has to be government-issued?
 
What exactly are you talking about here? This has nothing to do with people buying guns across state lines. This simply has to do with people who no longer live at the address listed on their photo ID. They could have moved 5 states away or just down the block.

This entire thread is about proof of residency. And yes that can be moving into the house next door or across the country. Walk into a gun store with a drivers license, if the address isn't correct they will probably not sell you the firearm. However, exemptions exists. With non government issued documents, ie utilities. Which has been my point from the beginning.

So then why would the 4473 say that your proof of residence has to be government-issued?

Paperwork Reduction Act of 1980 and all its reincarnations and editions. The 4473 lists 1995, revised 2016 as well. An ATF 4473 form is 6 pages. If every exemption, law, statute, and appellate court case was in there in the "instructions" area, it would be the size of a law book for the FFL to thumb through. A driver's license with the correct address is how a purchase will work 95 (or whatever)% of the time. Military, college students, aliens from another country etc are outliers for a gun store to deal with.

Earlier the anecdote story was one I did. ID (non driver) said NY, attending school in VT. School ID, wireless phone bill (showing a VT school address) and a few other documents I cannot remember allowed me to buy firearms in VT as a semi-permanent VT resident. There wasn't a single government issued document I provided to the FFL that had my VT address. Because of resident exemptions.
 
herrwalther said:
A utility bill is not a government issued document. That is the whole point.
Horsehocky.
A utility bill most certainly CAN BE GOVERNMENT ISSUED...........mine is.
My water/sewer/garbage collection billing is from the City of Plano, Texas.

You need to quit digging the hole you are in.
 
p
......the anecdote story was one I did. ID (non driver) said NY, attending school in VT. School ID, wireless phone bill (showing a VT school address) and a few other documents I cannot remember allowed me to buy firearms in VT as a semi-permanent VT resident. There wasn't a single government issued document I provided to the FFL that had my VT address. Because of resident exemptions.
Ever stop to think that dealer violated ATF regs?......'cause he did.;)
 
This entire thread is about proof of residency. And yes that can be moving into the house next door or across the country. Walk into a gun store with a drivers license, if the address isn't correct they will probably not sell you the firearm. However, exemptions exists. With non government issued documents, ie utilities. Which has been my point from the beginning.
No, it has to be government-issued. The ATF specifically says on the 4473 that proof of residence documents must be government-issued. What part of “government-issued” do you not understand?

Earlier the anecdote story was one I did. ID (non driver) said NY, attending school in VT. School ID, wireless phone bill (showing a VT school address) and a few other documents I cannot remember allowed me to buy firearms in VT as a semi-permanent VT resident. There wasn't a single government issued document I provided to the FFL that had my VT address. Because of resident exemptions.
Your dealer broke the rules. He was only supposed to allow government-issued proof of residency documents. Like it says right on the instructions on 4473, which too many dealers don’t read, apparently.
 
No, it has to be government-issued. The ATF specifically says on the 4473 that proof of residence documents must be government issued. What part of “government-issued” do you not understand?

No it doesn't. I have shown multiple letters of residency exemptions from the ATF.

Your dealer broke the rules. He was only supposed to allow government-issued proof of residency documents. Like it says right on the 4473.

The VT dealer I purchased firearms from has been in business since the Korean war. But I will certainly tell them they do business wrong because someone on the internet said so. This back and forth is concluded.
 
No it doesn't. I have shown multiple letters of residency exemptions from the ATF.
”Residency exemption”? There’s no such thing. It appears you once had a dealer screw up and break the rules in your favor, and now you’re trying to justify it. None of what you posted has anything to do with what we’re talking about; we’re talking about the requirement to provide an extra government-issued proof of residency in the case where your photo ID has an old address on it. I don’t mean this to sound like an insult, but you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve worked at three different FFLs, managing two of them. I’ve been through 4 different ATF IOI inspections. And @dogtown tom is an actual FFL holder, and he knows more about this than I do. But you don’t need to have our experience and knowledge, all you need to do is read the instructions on the 4473, instructions you seem determined to completely disregard. I’ll post those instructions from the 4473 again, because you keep pretending they don’t exist:

“Question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation: Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's/buyer's residence address. This supplemental documentation should be recorded in question 18.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented. For example, if the transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address. A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the transferee's/buyer's name and current residence address.”

The VT dealer I purchased firearms from has been in business since the Korean war. But I will certainly tell them they do business wrong because someone on the internet said so. This back and forth is concluded.
The ATF itself says he’s doing his business wrong, and they say it right on the back of the 4473, a document he handles every single time he transfers a firearm. Maybe he just hasn’t read it in a while.

I’m always amazed at the number of dealers who don’t seem to understand basic stuff that’s explained on the instructions on the 4473. They don’t know the rules for customers with multiple residencies, they try to sell AR lowers as rifles or pistols, they allow customers to use non-government-issued documents as proofs of residence, etc. This isn’t difficult, but my guess is that those dealers haven’t been inspected by the ATF in a while and they’re just getting lazy. Who knows? But whatever the reason, they're still wrong, as was your VT dealer.
 
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No it doesn't. I have shown multiple letters of residency exemptions from the ATF.
No, you posted a twenty odd year old temporary letter from ATF that isn't valid.
The actual valid ATF Ruling 2010-6 on "State of Residence" is: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2010-6-state-residence/download

From that Ruling:
.....The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement...."


After you read that you'll realize that everything you've posted on the subject is nonsense.

And "letters of residency exemptions"...............AIN'T NO SUCH THING BUB.


The VT dealer I purchased firearms from has been in business since the Korean war. But I will certainly tell them they do business wrong because someone on the internet said so. This back and forth is concluded.
Sooo.......Lets assume he was 21 years old when he started his gun business. Being the Korean War pretty much stalemated in 1953 that means he's been in business for sixty seven years..........which makes him at least age 87? Yeah. But all that means exactly jack squat to compliance with the Gun Control Act of 1968.

And "someone on the internet" who posts actual ATF Rulings and instructions vs your recollection of what some gun dealer somewhere in Vermont accepted as proof of residency? I'll take the internet guy every time.

In this thread you've posted some seriously flawed information, including:
1. "Long term out of state stays ie for education, classify as a residency exemption."
2. Wireless bills from a commercial entity can serve as a government issued document.
3. That ATF issues "letters of residency exemptions"
4. "A utility bill is not a government issued document."

You should stop posting.
 
"transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address. A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the transferee's/buyer's name and current residence address.”[/QUOTE]

So what you are saying sounds true I own a house in NY and have a NY drivers license.I also own a house in Florida was in a gun shop last year and the dealer said he could sell me a handgun If could show him the tax bill for the property and to Identify me with my current drivers license.
 
I have multiple vehicles. one is kept permanently in one state and never leaves. Since i have a cabin there. The vehicle is registered in that state using the address of my cabin in that state. my DL and and my LTC are for my current state of Texas which is my true permanent address. I also have utility bills for the cabin.

I have purchased firearms from that other state as a resident using my passport/passport card as photo identification and the vehicle registration, property deed, and utility bills to show residence.

So what is needed to prove residence varies from state to state. When you own multiple properties in more then one state, it begins to become a gray area.

We all want to say one only has one residence, but in reality you can have more then one residence even though the law may want to force you into only having one.
 
I have multiple vehicles. one is kept permanently in one state and never leaves. Since i have a cabin there. The vehicle is registered in that state using the address of my cabin in that state. my DL and and my LTC are for my current state of Texas which is my true permanent address. I also have utility bills for the cabin.

I have purchased firearms from that other state as a resident using my passport/passport card as photo identification and the vehicle registration, property deed, and utility bills to show residence.

So what is needed to prove residence varies from state to state. When you own multiple properties in more then one state, it begins to become a gray area.

We all want to say one only has one residence, but in reality you can have more then one residence even though the law may want to force you into only having one.
You need to read the ATF Ruling above. What you wrote above has no bearing on what is your current residence address and yoour state of residence for the purposes of acquiring firearms under federal law.
- Federal law requires you to write your current residence address, not your "true permanent address" which is meaningless in regards to acquiring firearms.
- "what is needed to prove residence varies from state to state"......no, it doesn't. Again, read that ATF Ruling and the instructions on the Form 4473.
- "when you own multiple properties in more than....."........again, meaningless. Ownership of property is not a requirement.

ATF's interpretation of "State of Residence" is more liberal than Barack Obama.......you just have to LIVE IN THAT STATE. You provide proof by showing certain government issued documents. What a particular state requires for paying taxes, voting, etc has no bearing on the requirements of federal law.
 
I bought many firearms when I was out of my home state attending college. Student ID was one form of in state ID. I also had a cell phone bill that was delivered to the campus. I didn't get a driver's license or car for years after. When I bought my very first firearm, I walked to the gun store from my girlfriend's house. Still have that first handgun. The girl is long gone.
When was this?
 
You need to read the ATF Ruling above. What you wrote above has no bearing on what is your current residence address and yoour state of residence for the purposes of acquiring firearms under federal law.
- Federal law requires you to write your current residence address, not your "true permanent address" which is meaningless in regards to acquiring firearms.
- "what is needed to prove residence varies from state to state"......no, it doesn't. Again, read that ATF Ruling and the instructions on the Form 4473.
- "when you own multiple properties in more than....."........again, meaningless. Ownership of property is not a requirement.

ATF's interpretation of "State of Residence" is more liberal than Barack Obama.......you just have to LIVE IN THAT STATE. You provide proof by showing certain government issued documents. What a particular state requires for paying taxes, voting, etc has no bearing on the requirements of federal law.

I was under the impression that some states have additional requirements ver and beyond the federal requirement. Such as Illinois requires people to have a FOID card.

I am not a resident of Illinois, so I can’t get a Illinois FOID. However, if I bought a cabin there, or maybe even rented a cabin or apartment, then it’s very possible I could obtain an Illinois FOID card because I could claim that’s my residence. I would have utility bills, a deed, property tax forms, maybe even n a vehicle registration. All forms showing an Illinois address. Even when the fact is it would only be a recreation property. No different then the property I own in Utah. I wouldn’t be “living in Illinois” except for the time I would be at the property. No different then I don’t live in Utah, but as far as Utah is concerned, I do live in Utah because I own property in Utah, have a vehicle registered in Utah, etc... I could probably even get away with registering to vote in Utah. Although I haven’t, and wouldn’t because voting twice would be just wrong. Although I should be able to vote for Utah stuff, since I own property there. However that’s a discussion for a later time.

It is true you don’t have to own property, or have a vehicle, or even have a drivers license. However, you have to show some proof of legal residence. The documents needed to prove this in some ways indirectly require something such as leasing a residence, or owning one.

If your living with someone, no DL, don’t own a car, and don’t have any utilities in your name, providing proof could be more difficult. In Texas with someone like this, Texas would require a notarized signed affidavit from someone living there, with proof that they live there, saying that the other person lives there. All just to get a Texas ID card.

So while none of that is required, in a way it is to get the documents you need to show who you are and proof of residence.
 
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I was under the impression that some states have additional requirements ver and beyond the federal requirement. Such as Illinois requires people to have a FOID card.
Well sure they may. States may be more restrictive than Federal law and some states may allow cities and counties to be more restrictive than state law.
But FEDERAL law is very liberal in "state of residence" for the purpose of acquiring a firearm. That ATF ruling on "State of Residence" has nothing to do with residence for any other purpose. For example, voting or paying taxes.

I am not a resident of Illinois, so I can’t get a Illinois FOID. However, if I bought a cabin there, or maybe even rented a cabin or apartment, then it’s very possible I could obtain an Illinois FOID card because I could claim that’s my residence. I would have utility bills, a deed, property tax forms, maybe even n a vehicle registration. All forms showing an Illinois address. Even when the fact is it would only be a recreation property. No different then the property I own in Utah. I wouldn’t be “living in Illinois” except for the time I would be at the property.
Correct.


It is true you don’t have to own property, or have a vehicle, or even have a drivers license. However, you have to show some proof of legal residence. The documents needed to prove this in some ways indirectly require something such as leasing a residence, or owning one.
Of course, says so right in the ATF Ruling.

If your living with someone, no DL, don’t own a car, and don’t have any utilities in your name, providing proof could be more difficult. In Texas with someone like this, Texas would require a notarized signed affidavit from someone living there, with proof that they live there, saying that the other person lives there. All just to get a Texas ID card.
True.


So while none of that is required, in a way it is to get the documents you need to show who you are and proof of residence.
It's required you provide government issued documentation showing your name and current residence address if you Gov issued photo ID does not.
 
About the college student thing:


27 C.F.R. 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
ATF Rul. 80-21
[Status of ruling: Active]
The Bureau has been asked to determine the State of residence of out-of-State college students for purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968. “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 C.F.R. 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.


Applying the above example to out-of- State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out- of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.​
 
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