I'm thinkin' I might want one of these

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MCgunner

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I've had an idea for a few years to buy a cheap, used Lyman GPP pistol in .54 and bore out the rifling to make it smooth, but I'd need a lathe and tools and I don't have any of them at home.

This wouldn't require a lathe to do and under $400 it's a good price. I feel the barrel is too short tho, 6 inches for a black powder 12 gauge? No, 10 inches would be better. That fat grip tho looks like it would do the job reducing felt recoil.
 
I think it would be perfect for blackhorn 209 since it employs a straight 209 primer channel with no curves but 6 inches of barrel is short enough to effect the pattern and velocity in a negative way especially with black powder.

With modern smokeless shotguns except for muzzle blast and recoil the shot pattern and velocity is not significantly affected for barrel lengths above 9 or 10 inches believe it or not. I do not know about the effects when using black powder as a propellent.

I love the other 11 inch double barrels on that sight but they use percussion caps. You could probably install magspark 209 converters in place of the nipples but the flash channels are angled not straight like the 6 inch barrel model. Unscrewing and screwing on magspark caps to remove and insert the 209 primers is an annoying task too but the system is watertight and more reliable.

I have heard of people using black horn 209 in traditional percussion muzzleloaders (angled flash channel percussion breach) with magspark adapters. Would this be reliable I know the people at blackhorn insist on using straight flash channel 209 systems but maybe someone can chime in as to whether it works reliably enough.

I also noted that these are low price relative to the more recognized high quality Italian howdas. They also recommend an anemic 40 grain charge of slow burning 2f which seems pretty mild for the .73 caliber bore of a 12 gauge. I am curious as to who makes these and where are they made as well as the materials used. Hmmm well I just came across this at their website

"AGC represents a consortium of manufactures with manufacturing facilities in two locations: Indianapolis and Houston We offer precision machining services that range from 5 axis milling/drilling, CNC machining, jigs to fixtures, welding, and fabrications. We have over 15,000 sq. ft. dedicated to assembly, welding, and fabricating processes alone."

Are these actually American made ? I am beginning to like them more. I sure would like to see user reviews of these.

I really think they should make the longer barrel versions with the same straight channel break open (more reliable ignition as well as easier, faster, and more convenient to load) 209 system or even the pistol with a 12 to 14 inch barrel.
 
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I have a mag spark on my Hawken Hunter Carbine and I can shoot BH209 in it reliably. I was amazed, but it worked. I do like the straight through 209 priming, but I have a CVA Wolf that won't fire BH209 even though it HAS straight through priming. CVA sells a proper breech plug for it, though, and I hear one can drill the stock breech plug out to make it work. I've done neither.....yet. :D
 
I've done some research about the use of Blackhorn 209, and the company website is quite clear that the powder
requires pressure from a very tight fitting projectile in order to ignite reliably and properly.

The company highly recommends the use of sabots for that very reason.
Even tight patched round balls do not always provide enough of a gas seal to contain the compression needed for BH 209 to ignite each and every time.

In other words, just because a gun will accept 209 primers, doesn't mean that BH 209 will work in it.
It may or may not depending on how tight the projectile is loaded and the method of sealing the powder in the bore.
Perhaps without rifling, the smooth bore can be adequately sealed with the use of over powder cards.
But in a rifled bore, that's more difficult to accomplish without a sabot.
 
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arcticap said:
I've done some research about the use of Blackhorn 209, and the company website is quite clear that the powder
requires pressure from a very tight fitting projectile in order to ignite reliably and properly.

The company highly recommends the use of sabots for that very reason.
Even tight patched round balls do not always provide enough of a seal to create the compression [or gas seal] needed for BH 209 to ignite each and every time.

In other words, just because a gun will accept 209 primers, doesn't mean that BH 209 will work in it.
It may or may not depending on how tight the projectile is loaded and the method of sealing the powder in the bore.
Click to expand...



Good point and I would also like to add that you reminded me when using a double barrel especially a short barrel that can have heavy recoil those projectiles better be very tight fitting to prevent the projectile in the other barrel from shifting during recoil possibly creating an air gap between the powder and projectile/projectiles resulting in a kaboom on the next shot. I have always worried about this when thinking of double barrel muzzle loaders.
 
arcticap said:
Those other two new 12 gauge Howdah models with double 11 inch barrels from the same outfit also look very intriguing, the Bulldog & the Wrath.
Especially the Wrath Hunter model that comes with the scope rail:--->>> https://americanguncraft.com/products/
Click to expand...
Yeah, they’re interesting but phillips screws on a firearm just look cheap. And if the outside is that cheap I wonder about the inside...
 
TTv2 said:
I've had an idea for a few years to buy a cheap, used Lyman GPP pistol in .54 and bore out the rifling to make it smooth, but I'd need a lathe and tools and I don't have any of them at home.

This wouldn't require a lathe to do and under $400 it's a good price. I feel the barrel is too short tho, 6 inches for a black powder 12 gauge? No, 10 inches would be better. That fat grip tho looks like it would do the job reducing felt recoil.
Click to expand...
And for what it’s worth, you can probably bore the Lyman yourself. Use a bit only slightly over bore diameter and it will follow the bore all the way down. Finish up with a hand reamer and you’re in business.
Actually finding a cheap GPP would be the most difficult part of the undertaking.
 
Another fellow posted these BP SXS's on Ar15.com awhile back. I had to take look at them.
Things that worry me - the break action one is a computerized drawing. I have to wonder if it actually exists.
The "wood" on the other ones isn't real wood. It's plastic with some sort of dip applied to it.

Note on the Wrath:

Stock: Synthetic
Stock Finish: Dark Tone Burl wood

I want real wood and a stock vs a pistol grip.

The other issue is proof testing. At least the Italian guns have it.
 
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woodnbow said:
And for what it’s worth, you can probably bore the Lyman yourself. Use a bit only slightly over bore diameter and it will follow the bore all the way down. Finish up with a hand reamer and you’re in business.
Actually finding a cheap GPP would be the most difficult part of the undertaking.
Click to expand...
Yup. Last cheap GPP I saw was a used one that was under $200 on Gunbroker. That was 2 years ago.
 
drobs said:
Another fellow posted these BP SXS's on Ar15.com awhile back. I had to take look at them.
Things that worry me - the break action one is a computerized drawing. I have to wonder if it actually exists.
The "wood" on the other ones isn't real wood. It's plastic with some sort of dip applied to it.

Note on the Wrath:

Stock: Synthetic
Stock Finish: Dark Tone Burl wood

I want real wood and a stock vs a pistol grip.

The other issue is proof testing. At least the Italian guns have it.
Click to expand...

Proof testing would be the least of my concerns.
Did you see the page showing their production facility and machining equipment?--->>> https://americanguncraft.com/equipment/
I'll admit that there's fine details lacking about some aspects of the product [such as the quality of the locks, overall construction, composition & finish], and that the phillips screws look cheap
and out of place.
And they posted a video review of the Pedersoli Howdah by Hickock45 instead of their own gun on their own website.
But it is made in the USA and not China, Mexico, India, Brazil or in the former Eastern Bloc countries, all places where muzzle loaders have been produced and imported from.
I would think that they've done their own proof testing to protect their company and jobs, and from being sued under US product liability laws.
Why would they risk bringing a gun to market if it weren't able to pass minimal proof testing?
There's something to be said about American pride and ingenuity.
I think that they're trying to save Americans some money from needing a pay a king's ransom for Pedersoli imports, some of which are very high priced due their extra fancy wood & finish.
As long as the gun is safe, durable and functional, most people would appreciate saving some money and buying an American made gun.
But IMO they should at least be able to produce a video of their own gun being fired.

AFAIK this is the only video on their youtube channel:

 
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arcticap said:
Proof testing would be the least of my concerns.
Did you see the page showing their production facility and machining equipment?--->>> https://americanguncraft.com/equipment/
I'll admit that there's fine details lacking about some aspects of the product [such as the quality of the locks, overall construction, composition & finish], and that the phillips screws look cheap
and out of place.
And they posted a video review of the Pedersoli Howdah by Hickock45 instead of their own gun on their own website.
But it is made in the USA and not China, Mexico, India, Brazil or in the former Eastern Bloc countries, all places where muzzle loaders have been produced and imported from.
I would think that they've done their own proof testing to protect their company and jobs, and from being sued under US product liability laws.
Why would they risk bringing a gun to market if it weren't able to pass minimal proof testing?
There's something to be said about American pride and ingenuity.
I think that they're trying to save Americans some money from needing a pay a king's ransom for Pedersoli imports, some of which are very high priced due their extra fancy wood & finish.
As long as the gun is safe, durable and functional, most people would appreciate saving some money and buying an American made gun.
But IMO they should at least be able to produce a video of their own gun being fired.

AFAIK this is the only video on their youtube channel:

Click to expand...


Hopefully they are good to go.

Googling their address:

855 Village Center Drive Suite 342
St. Paul, MN 55127-3002

Brings up this website:
https://mcknightartisan.net/

Street viewing that address - I see a strip mall.
 
I understand, it may be a start-up company working as part of an umbrella organization or with investors, or they may be marketers.

Their home page is more revealing:

“Drawing from our rich manufacturing heritage tracing back to 1941, .... AGC represents a consortium of manufactures with manufacturing facilities in two locations: Indianapolis and Houston. "

The company (or companies) seems to be involved in making many more machined products than just these new muzzle loaders.
It begins with a machine shop company that has a desire to produce a product in order to keep busy,
and designs that someone came up with that they choose to invest in.
Seems to be a new gun making company that's larger than a sole proprietorship.
And maybe they've either hired an outfit to market or this marketer are the main investors in the gun.
Whatever the situation, every company needs to start out somewhere.
As quickly as companies like ASM or Euroarms went out of business, other companies can decide to start producing a product.
For all we know, they could be European investors, although the US production facilities would appear to indicate otherwise.
We've seen another company in the Czech Republic begin to make several new models, a derringer and a rifle.
They're mostly selling to the European market.
This company is only trying to break in to the US market.
Think of it like Knight rifles at the beginning, or any of the numerous smaller inline rifle making companies that have come and gone over the years.
Most started out as sole proprietorships with the owner making the products themselves with their own machinery.
Some couldn't keep up with demand, others couldn't sell enough guns to stay in business.
Can't fault people for trying, and they deserve the benefit of the doubt about their quality & safety until proven otherwise.
 
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arcticap said:
I would think that they've done their own proof testing to protect their company and jobs, and from being sued under US product liability laws.
Why would they risk bringing a gun to market if it weren't able to pass minimal proof testing?
Click to expand...

I agree that they may be expected to have tested their product, but on the other hand depending on the state where they are located, they may not have any actual "assets" to attach if one was to sue them for a defective product. :confused: Not all states are the same, and I have knowledge of a company that "leases" it's building and barrel making machines from another source, actually owning only the barrels in various stages of manufacture. Not every state allows you to go after the company "officers" if the company does not have the funds or assets to cover the civil award of a court. Companies aren't required to have insurance in all states, either. (It's not medicine, having malpractice insurance.) But you would have a much better chance (imho) as an American in an American court than in an overseas court. ;)

As for "minimal proof testing", well that's up to the manufacturer, or to each of the proofing houses around the world (if you send them a barrel or barrels). Black powder proofing unlike modern cartridge proofing does not have universal pressures and methods as it does with modern cartridges. ;) So each proofing house is free to stamp what it think meets what it decides is its standard. Here in the USA..., it's up to the manufacturer.

So..., does the Diablo with a single hammer select one barrel after another when you fire it, OR are you touching off both barrels at once ???

LD
 
As a faithful watcher of many Law & Order TV show reruns, IMHO a company officer can be held criminally liable for deaths that result from their intentional negligence.
Those prosecutors on the show go after all kinds of corporate bad guys once they realize how they intentionally contributed to someone's death.
Yep, they charge them with homicide and try to send them to the slammer.
And if a company didn't test their guns in a diligent fashion at all, then I'd think that someone would end up in jail if there were a number of serious injuries.
Whistle blowers are everywhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had an independent lab doing the testing.
Someone's doing testing, it makes no sense for them to not protect their own investment, or the investments of their investors.
There's multiple ways that people are held accountable.
The USA certainly isn't as red as China where anything goes, and it's like the wild west over there.
It's not like these new models are hundreds of years old like some of the guns that folks still choose to shoot with. o_O



Loyalist Dave said:
I agree that they may be expected to have tested their product, but on the other hand depending on the state where they are located, they may not have any actual "assets" to attach if one was to sue them for a defective product. :confused: Not all states are the same, and I have knowledge of a company that "leases" it's building and barrel making machines from another source, actually owning only the barrels in various stages of manufacture. Not every state allows you to go after the company "officers" if the company does not have the funds or assets to cover the civil award of a court. Companies aren't required to have insurance in all states, either. (It's not medicine, having malpractice insurance.) But you would have a much better chance (imho) as an American in an American court than in an overseas court. ;)

As for "minimal proof testing", well that's up to the manufacturer, or to each of the proofing houses around the world (if you send them a barrel or barrels). Black powder proofing unlike modern cartridge proofing does not have universal pressures and methods as it does with modern cartridges. ;) So each proofing house is free to stamp what it think meets what it decides is its standard. Here in the USA..., it's up to the manufacturer.

So..., does the Diablo with a single hammer select one barrel after another when you fire it, OR are you touching off both barrels at once ???

LD
Click to expand...
 
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Has the website gone T/U, or is it just a firewall thing at my end?
 
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