IMR4198 and .45-70

Status
Not open for further replies.
badkarmamib

badkarmamib

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
2,474
Location
VA
I have exhausted the search function here, and the rest of the internet. Other threads are close to what I am struggling with, but not close enough for my comfort, since I am dealing with someone else's rifle. I am sure everyone reading this is rolling their eyes at my stupidity, but here it goes:

My father just bought a Henry steel-frame lever-action in .45-70. I offered to help him pick out components and teach him to load on my press. I checked Hodgdon's site, as I am partial to their powder offerings. I found a load using 300 gr Sierra HP and IMR 4198. Perfect. Then, it got complicated...

I had been using the data for Modern Rifles. Hey, it is a modern rifle, and I blinked while scrolling. So, found there was data for the same components in a lever-action. But, I wanted to verify. So, I grabbed my trusty Lyman 49. While Lyman used a different bullet, they are way off (old news, I know). Hodgdon's Trap Door data starts where Lyman's Modern leaves off.

Dad wants to hunt with this rifle. Should it be safe to use Hodgdon's Trap Door data, since it uses the same components, in the Henry, even though it is over Lyman's data, albeit with a different bullet but a much lower pressure threshold? And, if he isn't satisfied, should I be able to venture into Hodgdon's Lever-Action territory? Thanks for reading this far, and indulging my trepidation with helping someone with a project that is in uncharted waters for me.
 
I have Lyman #48, and it actually had 3 sections: trapdoor, marlin/winchester, and Ruger #1,3... probsnly also Mauser.

I do not know the specifics of the Henry bolt and received lockup, but I would think it would be closer to a marlin than a 140 year old Springfield in term of strength. The old Springfield loads are limited to about 17000 CUP. I know what my marlin can safely take.. or rather, how hot a load I am willing to run in it, which is still less than what others might, but it is more than 17000.

I like IMR4198 and H322 powders in my marlin 1895. Trailboss makes some nice plinker loads of you want to go subsonic.
 
badkarmamib, since you loading for a levergun why wouldn't the levergun data on the Hodgdon site be good?

One warning, high end data means more pwowder, pressure and recoil. If your dad isn't find or recoil any longer use the max charges from the Trapdoor data or a little more if you need to add just a bit more to find an accurate load.

Currently I'm using AA5744 in all my 45-70 loads but I did use a lot of 4198 over the years. I loaded mostly for a Trapdoor rifle until a few years ago when I bought a used Marlin. I have a few loads for the Marlin, you might want to try the most accurate in my gun.

Hornady 300gr JSP bullet, 45.0gr IMR-4198, CCI200 primer
Nosler 300gr Ballistic Silvertip bullet, 49.5gr IMR-4198, CCI200 primer (good for bear)

Always check data you get from strangers on the Interest, mistakes can and will happen.
 
I shoot 300gr Hornady HP and IMR 4198 and I load slightly over Hornady Marlin MINIMUM data to maybe MID RANGE. Recoil got a little squirrely so I stopped there. Do not use any modern data in that gun as those are for ruger #1 and such. I killed a big doe with a pass through at 75yards and a 13pt non typical at 110 yards with the same load last year. I will say I noticed with my Marlin that its picky. It may shoot like crap with an even number of powder and then go up 2 tenths and its a dream. Hodgdon Marlin and trap door data should be G2G but if your dads older he may not like the recoil. If your shooting under 100yards trap door data or low Marlin data around 1600-1700fps will kill any deer IMO. Also if Henry offers it get him a limb saver fitted recoil pad. It makes a world of difference.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
badkarmamib, since you loading for a levergun why wouldn't the levergun data on the Hodgdon site be good?
Click to expand...
I would think it would be, but Lyman's data for lever guns is WAY under what Hodgdon lists. Lyman does state that they were trying to keep the lever-action pressure lower than what Hodgdon was willing to push for. I usually use Lyman, since it is very thorough, and Hodgdon, since they are the powders I use, for data. They have always been close enough that I feel confident in proceeding, until now. With as much variation between the two sources, I wanted to see if anyone knew if one of the sources had a fault, was either being conservative or pushing the envelope, or if it was simply due to using different methods.
 
@ohihunter2014 Thanks for the info. He does not seem to be recoil-shy. I thought the rifle pushed pretty good with the factory loads he bought, he thought it was pretty mild. The rifle does have a good recoil pad.
 
From what I have seen, any modern firearm qualifies under the Modern Lever loads... but, as was mentioned, data is fairly inconsistent.

I've been working up loads for my Marlin 1895, what I found when I used Modern Lever data was velocity at 1800fps and over, and way too much recoil (with 350 and 405grn cast bullets) using powders like IMR's 3130, 4895, and 4064; although they would make excellent hunting loads. My 1895 has a nice fluffy recoil pad, and I wear a shoulder pad, too. I've since reduced my velocity expectations to about 1500fps, achieving this with faster powders like IMR4198, IMR3031, and AA5744; I consider these high end Trapdoor loads or low-end Lever loads.

With a cast 405grn bullet, 35grn IMR4198 gets me ~1500fps.

I've done some juggling with the 350grn cast bullet... 45grn IMR3031 gets me 1600fps, but 28grn AA5744 only 1400fps. I ran out of IMR4198 before I was able to load any under the 350's.
 
cheygriz said:
If the action is based on the Win 1876, rather than the1886, I would not exceed Lyman's loads.

The 76 action is not significantly stronger than the trapdoor.
Click to expand...

Going to the source... Henry... their instruction manual doesn't really specify restricted use, only that it is for use with commercially loaded .45-70 ammunition. The action breakdown makes it look like it has a single locking bolt very similar to the Marlin 1895, and certainly not the Winchester 1886.
 
We use 37.5gr of IMR 4198 with a cast 405gr bullet as the standard 45/70 load. Shoot it it Marlin 95's and a BFR revolver with good accuracy in both.
 
badkarmamib said:
I would think it would be, but Lyman's data for lever guns is WAY under what Hodgdon lists. Lyman does state that they were trying to keep the lever-action pressure lower than what Hodgdon was willing to push for. I usually use Lyman, since it is very thorough, and Hodgdon, since they are the powders I use, for data. They have always been close enough that I feel confident in proceeding, until now. With as much variation between the two sources, I wanted to see if anyone knew if one of the sources had a fault, was either being conservative or pushing the envelope, or if it was simply due to using different methods.
Click to expand...
The reason for the discrepancy between Lyman and Hodgdon in this case is both are using different pressure ranges to set their limits.

Lyman is using 18,000 CUP for Trapdoor limits.
Lyman is using 28,000 CUP for Levergun limits.
Lyman is using 40,000 CUP for very strong actions like the Ruger No. 1 or No. 3 only.

Hodgdon does not clearly state what limits they are using for each category of load data but looking at the data tells the story.

Looking at their data they seem to add 10,000 CUP+ to each category.
Their Trapdoor data runs up to 28,000 CUP, their levergun data to 40,000 CUP and all the way up to 50,000 CUP for Ruger only data. There is where the conflict in data is based.

Personally I would go with the Lyman data but keeping in mind that in stronger actions if you find it necessary to add just a little more powder to find more accuracy it will be safe because of the tested and published data provided by Hodgdon. (but not for my old Trapdoor rifle lol)
 
I thought of trying 4198 in my 40+ year old Marlin but never got around to it. So far it has digested only one load in those 4 decades. That load is 53 grains of 3031 for fine accuracy at 1800 fps. Mine, too, has a rubber butt plate and the recoil is serious. This load has killed numerous deer. The Marlin is a strong rifle.
 
Hunter86004 said:
Would it be me, I'd contact Henry and ask what sort of pressure their lever guns are rated/built for.

Might take some of the guess work out.
Click to expand...
Some others have done that, and their response is that their actions are suited for "any commercially available loaded ammunition". They do not seem to want to entertain reloads in their rifles. I know that is the way a lot of manufacturers are, due to obvious liability concerns, but it leaves me in a quandary when different sources test loads with a test barrel, not the action they are publishing loads for.
 
Last edited:
Hunter86004 said:
Would it be me, I'd contact Henry and ask what sort of pressure their lever guns are rated/built for.

Might take some of the guess work out.
Click to expand...
I can hear them say if you reload it will void the warranty too! I asked CVA the same thing about their single shot 45-70 and was nicely told if I reload it voids the warranty. They even gave me a very half rear ended answer that went something like our rifles are built to withstand factory pressure loads. Thank you. I understood what they meant but someone could have thought outside the box and said oooh factory pressure=ruger #1. Hopefully Henry helps him out.
 
I am well known for liking heavy loads.

But if the action was specifically designed for black powder, not so much. Even if a weapon is a replica made from the latest steel, I still take the design of the action into consideration.

Been loading for over 50 years, and still got both eyes and all ten fingers!:)
 
badkarmamib wrote:
Lyman's data for lever guns is WAY under what Hodgdon lists.
Click to expand...

Well, then, start with the Lyman data and work up.

I know you're loading for someone else, but that doesn't negate the need to begin with a conservative load and work your way towards something "hotter".
 
I checked the data for commercial Federal loadings, which lists a MV of 1850 FPS. According to the disparate data, that should be about halfway between Lyman's MAX Lever-Action and Hodgdon's MIN Trapdoor loads :scrutiny:. That will be my target, understanding that the MV on the side of the box and the load manuals is determined with different equipment than what I have, but if I start low, and get to a place where my loads match POI with the commercial loads, that sounds like a good place to stop, if he is happy.
 
What is your dad hunting? I'm asking because I'm wondering why you chose the components you did and why you seem to be picking an arbitrary velocity goal.

Just a note, you can shoot a 405gr of 485gr Cast Bullet at 1200 to 1300 fps in the 45-70 and the bullet will go clean through a Water Buffalo. (most times) If we know your needs we can help more with your load development.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
What is your dad hunting?
Click to expand...
Mostly paper. He just picked up a box of Federal Fusion 300gr with the rifle, so I thought it would be good to start with a similar load, since I had never worked with the round, and he has never handloaded. But, his justification for any round is, can it kill a deer. He has better rifles for deer than this, I think he just wanted one, so I am not too tied to these rounds. It is just a place to start, until he decides what he wants, or sells it.

If it were mine, yes, it would be a lead 405, pushed by true black powder, but that is me.
 
Well then, just for killing paper, you are wasting expensive bullets and extra powder. Even a 300gr Cast Bullet will kill deer and bear too at fairly low velocities.

There is no need to push a 300gr JHP bullet to 1850 fps to kill paper or deer. Load up some Trapdoor type ammo from the Lyman manual, find an accurate load and call it good even if it's below 1850 fps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
need some help with pressure units-CUP.
Replies
6
Views
461
ants
A
J
  • Locked
45-70 and IMR4198 questions
Replies
10
Views
721
jbkebert
J
A
  • Locked
what is my 45-70?
Replies
10
Views
955
FROGO207
FROGO207
F
  • Locked
IMR4198 for 45-70 modern lever gun
Replies
3
Views
635
ArchAngelCD
ArchAngelCD
Obturation
  • Locked
Imr4198 minimum load, 45-70
Replies
4
Views
1K
Edcnh
Edcnh
Back
Top