Interesting Podcast on Sighted vs. Unsighted Fire

[Deaf Smith]

strambo,

Hip/retention shooting (belt level) can be the old speed rock, CAR, 1/4 hip, etc.. just a form of belt level shooting. Thell Reid would hit a coffee can at 75 yards from the hip (but according to Cooper he had to have a 'sighter' shot.)

I'm sure not advocating 75 yard hip shooting, but 3 yards is not hard to do with practice. I've done it regularly at 5 yards (but if the guy was uphill, like on the stairs, it might be harder.)

Now I am NOT WEDDED TO THE WEAVER STANCE. For each of us we need to find out of the Weaver, Isosceles, Chapman, reverse weaver, whatever... works for their form of 'stance'. Same for use of sights. Flash sight picture, front sight focus, target focus were you DO see the sights (kind of blurry), etc.. as long as you see the sights as you shoot to verify your alignment.

Personally I prefer the Isosceles stance and 4 point draw (but like Bruce Lee the 4 point draw becomes just one stroke count, not some conscious 1,2,3,4. At '2' you have the hip/retention shooting using the body, along with the forearm, as an index (with proper grip on the gun.) My personal hip/retention technique is in the Bill Jordan style. I just love shooting from that position. Yes I know many others (some like South Narc's, in case of grappling.)

What you end up with is the retention/hip overlaps the sighted fire just a bit. Say use the sighted fire from 2-3 yards out and hip/retention 3-4 yards in. Bit of a overlap.

And once this is mastered you can add what ever you want to the basic system.

Oh, and this can be adapted to one handed shooting. You might want to totally forget using two hands and practice exclusively one handed. Then the 'stance' becomes more like Ayoob's one handed shooting stance but still use the sights in whatever form works for you. The only drawbacks with one handed shooting is recoil control and more effort to get longer range hits.

As with anything else, sometimes I think we are all saying the same thing but just using conflicting words.

And yes, Matt, we all (including myself) do.

Gotta go gang, time to get beaten up in class.

Deaf

 

[Matthew Temkin]

The 4 count draw stroke allows one to shoot anywhere from retention, 1/2 hip, 3/4 hip and full extension in one fluid motion.
I suppose you can call it shooting through your draw stroke, meaning one does not have to wait to get to full extension before opening fire.

My personal hip/retention technique is in the Bill Jordan style. I just love shooting from that position. Yes I know many others (some like South Narc's, in case of grappling.)

Same here.
I never was a fan of Soutnarc's #2.
Among other issues is that it will cause a semi to jam when shooting left handed, as well as having the muzzle uncomfortably close to the body.
Rather than the 2 for retention shooting I like to rest the magazine base against my rib cage with the pistol rotated somewhere between 45-90 degrees.
BTW--I do not consider retention shooting to be a part of hip shooting.
As Strambo pointed out, retention is when the gun is held close to/against your body and is the one time the gun is not in line with your center line.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Look at a photo of Bill Jordan and Bryce showing their technique.

Now imagine Bill's gun right above his holster and not near his belt buckle. That is where I shoot from.

It's what I get from watching 'Shane' to much (and yes I know Alan Ladd could not shoot at all.)

The trick is to make your forearm the index, not the body.

Deaf

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Here is a link to the book's cover, so Jordan's position can be illustrated.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-second-place-winner-bill-jordan/1101412538?ean=9780936279091
That is pretty much 3/4 hip--one handed.
Very fast and accurate, and one can continue shooting while raising the pistol higher and higher to full extension.
It can also be done with 2 hands.

Here is a link to Mr. Bryce--most of the methods shown can be described--for lack of a better term--as half hip.


https://www.google.com/search?q=jel...jc&ei=I0xWVMLRNfG1sQTep4GQDA#facrc=_&imgdii=_

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

What do you guys who are aficionados of point/unsighted shooting think of the concept of training with those laser cartridges? I have taken to training at home with a small laser that fits in the barrel of my Beretta or Glock and taken to drawing and getting into firing position while looking at the target only and focusing on *exactly* where I want the bullet to go verified by the laser. Would one of these with a 100 millisecond spot un trigger pull be better?

http://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-lt-cartridge

Seems to be improving my skill via dry fire and I wonder if having one of those that gives a dot of laser light when the trigger is pulled would be a worthy investment in practicing shooting from a point. Opinions?

And thanks in advance!

VooDoo

 

[strambo]

Yep, those photos are exactly what I was talking about adding to a "retention/sighted fire only" system. When I think of retention shooting, I picture a pectoral index shot or firing from pos 2 in the draw stroke. Both with the gun pulled back against the side of the body out of reach of a grab. As that introduces a lateral angle to the shot, it won't be accurate far or while moving.

The 3/4 hip shown by Jordan will easily cover the distance from just outside retention out to 5yds where you would feel comfortable bringing the gun all the way up.

The difference between shooting off-center from the side and any technique that gets the muzzle on centerline (or close to it) is huge.

 

[strambo]

Voodoo, those would be great for PS practice as is an Airsoft gun. I have an old cheapie laser that attaches to the trigger guard I used to use. I'd turn it on about every 10th dry fire to verify. The laser cartridges would be mo bettah.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Here is a link to the book's cover, so Jordan's position can be illustrated.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/no-second-place-winner-bill-jordan/1101412538?ean=9780936279091
That is pretty much 3/4 hip--one handed.
Very fast and accurate, and one can continue shooting while raising the pistol higher and higher to full extension.
It can also be done with 2 hands.

Here is a link to Mr. Bryce--most of the methods shown can be described--for lack of a better term--as half hip.


https://www.google.com/search?q=jel...jc&ei=I0xWVMLRNfG1sQTep4GQDA#facrc=_&imgdii=_

Matt,

That is not the photo. The one I mentioned had Bryce in it doing his crouch with Bill J beside him doing his thing.

Deaf

 

[Ankeny]

Apparently some here feel that accurate fire is not possible without some type of sighting reference.

When I say all that is necessary is "reading the relationship of the bore to the target face", that includes kinesthetic as well as visual. Up close, I can confirm sight alignment through "feel". As the distance increases, if it "feels right" and I can confirm the sight alignment peripherally, that's good enough. As the shot difficulty increases, I add more vision. Of course, that concept has gone by different names since the flintlock era.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Matt,

That is not the photo. The one I mentioned had Bryce in it doing his crouch with Bill J beside him doing his thing.

Deaf

The photo you are referring to is on the top row and the far right.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jel...jc&ei=I0xWVMLRNfG1sQTep4GQDA#facrc=_&imgdii=_

However--I do not believe that is Jelly Bryce.

What do you guys who are aficionados of point/unsighted shooting think of the concept of training with those laser cartridges?

Excellent--and not just for point shooting.
I have a S.I.R.T. gun which makes teaching aimed fire a much less frustrating experience.
http://www.shop.sirttraininggun.com/main.sc?gclid=CP2Bid7Z3cECFSVo7AodjXMAwQ

When I say all that is necessary is "reading the relationship of the bore to the target face", that includes kinesthetic as well as visual. Up close, I can confirm sight alignment through "feel". As the distance increases, if it "feels right" and I can confirm the sight alignment peripherally, that's good enough. As the shot difficulty increases, I add more vision. Of course, that concept has gone by different names since the flintlock era.

I do the same by just point shooting.
Without any reference to confirming sigh alignment--be it via vision, feel kinesthetics or even EST.
(Such big words makes me wish I had paid more attention in English class.)
No offense, but the above is exactly what I meant by over complicating a very simple issue.

 

[Deaf Smith]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103757

Same photo is 1/2 way down and they to say it's Bryce.

I dunno as I never met the fellow.

But you do see Jordan's stance. Now just pull the gun back abit so just as it clears the leather (and that is another reason I like short barrels) and rotates to fire.

Your gun side forearm just touches your ribs and helps with the index.

And that is my version of hip/retention. Others have their own style and all I care about is if you have a good index... and good trigger control.

Deaf

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Whatever works.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Interesting take on pointshooting from Skeeter Skelton!

"It is harder to describe pointshooting than it is to do a good job of it. Aligning the front and rear sights of the handgun on the target is not pointshooting, and neither is firing with the gun so low that the sights cannot be seen. The expert pointshooter focuses his eyes on his target. The handgun is swiftly raised and leveled just below a line between the gunner's eyes and the object to be hit.

In the lower part of his field of vision, the shooter is aware of the front sight of his handgun, and that it is approximately centered with the barrel and receiver. Using the front blade much as he would the bead of a shotgun, he controls the windage of the shot. Control of elevation, which dictates a high or low hit, is learned through familiarity with the gun and load, a nebulous thing called "gun feel" by some. Knowing how high or low your handgun will shoot, simply by the lay of its grip in your hand and the relationship of your shooting arm to your body, can only be accomplished through many hours of practice and the expenditure of a great deal of ammunition."

http://www.darkcanyon.net/Point_Shooting_For_The_Pot.htm

There is alot more to the article, alot more and is very interesting.

Deaf

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Super thanks for that link, 'Smith.

Voodoo

 

[JN01]

My definition and practice of point shooting corresponds with Skeeters.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Skeeter's is only one aspect (gun at full extension) of shooting without reference to the sights--which is how I define point shooting.
There are times when full extension is not a wise choice.

 

[Old Fuff]

Understand that Skeeter and his close buddy, Bill Jordan were both highly qualified at shooting from waist level - something I discussed at various times with both of them. Also at the time the Border Patrol was still incorporating waist level as part of its training.

However neither of them considered waist level to be point shooting in the context that is being addressed here, but an entirely different subject in its own right.

They saw waist level shooting as a tactic to be used when they're wasn't time to draw and get one's handgun to eye level, and as Bill once explained it quickly lost favor after pistols (that tend to throw hot brass around) replaced revolvers, where this wasn't an issue.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Skeeter's is only one aspect (gun at full extension) of shooting without reference to the sights--which is how I define point shooting.
There are times when full extension is not a wise choice.

Even at 3/4 hip one 'senses' the barrel in their peripheral vision, or as Skeeter said, 'the shooter is aware of the front sight of his handgun'.

Just bring the gun chest level and you see, in your peripheral vision, the gun. Your mind, being a computer, makes a rough computation as to the angle needed to hit. You don't think consciously of this but just like driving a car, you feel what is needed.

And Jordan was not 'highly qualified', he was gifted. Aspirin tables off tables at 10 feet from the hip, on TV, and not miss. Reflexes to .27 of a second to draw and hit.

Deaf