Intregal Revolver Locks

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These locks are a controversial issue & tend to get quite emotional in threads about 'em.

Many specious arguments are raised as to why they're no big deal, and truly they MAY not be a big deal for recreational shooters where a gun that locks itself up at the range is merely a nuisance.

There are, however, some facts to be considered.
One is that they undeniably add complexity to a very good design that is NOT improved in the slightest by their inclusion.

Another is that they DO fail.
While most individual users don't call the S&W Lock Failure Hotline, or their local TV news department, to report lock failures to be included in the national lock failure database; totally dismissing any account of a failure that you did not personally witness yourself is fatuous.

Another is that the percentages, as I noted earlier, ARE LOW, but THEY DO HAPPEN.
The odds are in your favor that your lock-equipped Smith revolver will never lock up on you.
But- there's always that small percentage that offsets those odds, and how can you guarantee you won't land among that group that falls on the wrong side of the odds?
With a lock, you're vulnerable to the laws of chance.
Without a lock, that particular vulnerability does not exist.

Another is the inference that these locks only seem to fail at the range, and never when actually needed, as when hunting or for self defense.
Consider, again, the percentages- a typical range session may involve anywhere from 50 to 200 rounds fired, whereas a hunt or defensive encounter may only involve one or two.
Where, again, do the odds of lock failure point you?
The range may be where the odds are greatest of a lock failure, due to sheer volume, but that in no way suggests that a failure won't happen after you've fired your first shot at a deer or attacker.
Also realize that most of these locked Smiths are not used for hunting, which further diminishes the possibility of a failure in the field.
And that in both of the cases we've been discussing, Bane's & Ayoob's, those happened to new guns.
As in the possibility of a first-occasion failure does exist, which is directly applicable to a buyer obtaining one for home defense & not shooting it much before it might be needed.

Arguments for & against a lock that nobody asked for & nobody needs, and which IS a bad design and which IS known to periodically fail, will continue as long as S&W continues to insist on using them.
The odds are in your favor, but if the lock's there, so does undeniably exist at least the possibility of failure, if not the probability.

We can bicker back & forth all day long, and there will be no consensus.
It boils down to this:

S&W took an unwanted position with these locks.
They are maintaining (for the most part) that position, in the face of strong customer dislike.
They are not admitting any fault with that lock.
They show no signs of backing down.

Many buyers today suffer from DK-DC Syndrome (Don't Know-Don't Care), until or unless they encounter a failure themselves.

Since the only new Smith revolvers offered (excepting a handful of Js) WILL have that lock, if you want new & it's gotta be a Smith then you have no choice, you're stuck with the lock.
You buy the horse, you also buy the horse manure that comes with it, and you deal with the downside.

We all have to make a choice- we play the odds & buy a new Smith with lock, or we don't.
Chances are we'll be fine if we do.
Understanding that somewhere, sometime, somehow, somebody WON'T be fine, and a failure WILL occur.
Whether that somebody is you, and whether it'll be at the range playing or in your hand fighting for your life, nobody can predict.

Once again, all of this has been an extended answer to the original poster's question.
Yes- the locks do fail.
Not often, but yes, they do.
Denis

Won't argue with any of it other than it passes over one other possible course of action. Buy a new S&W revolver and remove the lock. All the parts of the lock can be removed easily and if desired a plug for the remaining hole in the frame can be purchased or fabricated easily. You are left with a revolver that is again functionally nearly the same as a pre-lock S&W.

I wonder what the mean time between failures of the S&W lock compare with the mean time between failures of other components in the firing control system in the revolver.

That would be interesting but nearly unobtainable data and since the locks function is not needed/beneficial in anyway to is use (storage maybe) as a whole it can only reduce your mean time between failure as a whole.
 
An invalid comparison; the lock is not a part of the fire control system, does not move on each firing, is not subjected to the same stresses, and the lock parts are seldom (if ever) used by most owners.
When the lock fails, it activates itself, and that does not come from wear.
Denis
 
....the lock is not a part of the fire control system, does not move on each firing, is not subjected to the same stresses,.....
Denis

It is subjected to the stress of recoil and to the "rubbing" (what's the technical word?) of nearby parts, like the cylinder release, cylinder catch and the hammer.
 
It is subjected to recoil.
It is not subjected to either heavy spring pressure, repeated hard impacts, or pressured friction wear like what the trigger sear & hammer interactions create.

The lock parts are only mildly affected by light spring pressure, and repeated firing does not involve heavy friction of a type that creates tolerance degradations with extended use.

Unlike the hammer & trigger, which rotate and act against each other on every shot, the lock parts do not move on every shot.
They don't rotate, they don't rub anything hard, they don't impact anything.

Even if actually used, the small degree of spring force used to maintain drum position has no real affect in either creating friction or wearing those parts.

Can't compare those working "stresses" with what the actual firing system endures.
Denis
 
I have a 58-1, with an ILS.
It did lock upon me once.
I`ve fired probably 1,000 rounds thru it.
Even then, just a qtr turn with the key & it was operational.

Yes, it would`ve been a HUGE problem had it been in SD/HD mode.

So I guess I`m on the fence, but I won`t use it for SD/HD.
 
An invalid comparison; the lock is not a part of the fire control system, does not move on each firing, is not subjected to the same stresses, and the lock parts are seldom (if ever) used by most owners.
When the lock fails, it activates itself, and that does not come from wear.
Denis

Agreed, while the lock is not subject to operational wear like the firing control parts, it still takes the revolver out of action when it activates itself. Apparently, something other than using the key can activate the lock.

If the lock actually activates frequently enough on its own then it truly has some design issues that S&W needs to address. How much is "frequently enough"? Everyone will have their own opinion.
 
If the lock actually activates frequently enough on its own then it truly has some design issues that S&W needs to address. How much is "frequently enough"? Everyone will have their own opinion.
It only has to happen to YOU once.

I've been studying aircraft and firearms since I was in grammar school. I've never seen ANY device which was improved by ADDING potential points of failure.

The REAL problem isn't that S&W revolvers have a lock. The REAL problem is that S&W revolvers have a disasterously BADLY DESIGNED lock. It's not only unreliable and dangerous, it's hideously unaesthetic. It's almost as if the designer (and S&W marketing) set out to stick his thumb in the consumer's eye.

I've got a safe full of S&W revolvers. Not a single one has the lock. Not a single one WILL.
 
It only has to happen to YOU once.

I've been studying aircraft and firearms since I was in grammar school. I've never seen ANY device which was improved by ADDING potential points of failure.

The REAL problem isn't that S&W revolvers have a lock. The REAL problem is that S&W revolvers have a disasterously BADLY DESIGNED lock. It's not only unreliable and dangerous, it's hideously unaesthetic. It's almost as if the designer (and S&W marketing) set out to stick his thumb in the consumer's eye.

I've got a safe full of S&W revolvers. Not a single one has the lock. Not a single one WILL.
They have no incentive to change the design and/or offer no lock versions of their revolvers in the same way that they offer no safety versions of their M&P semis... People are still buying S&W revolvers, and S&W has little competition. Ruger, maybe, but Ruger does not have all the different sizes, models, and other extras. Plus, Rugers don't look as refined which is a big selling point for Smiths.. Couple the lack of competition with the "it hasn't happened to me, so I'm not worried or bothered by the lock" type of attitude, I don't see S&W making any changes in the foreseeable future... By the way, that attitude and logic reminds me of the folks who claim "I went all my life without ever needing a firearm or being a victim of a crime, so I don't need to start carrying one now."

Heck, on the S&W forum, you can get an infraction and possibly even banned for "bashing" AND/OR complaining about the lock...
 
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They have no incentive to change the design and/or offer no lock versions of their revolvers in the same way that they offer no safety versions of their M&P semis... People are still buying S&W revolvers, and S&W has little competition. Ruger, maybe, but Ruger does not have all the different sizes, models, and other extras. Plus, Rugers don't look as refined which is a big selling point for Smiths.. Couple the lack of competition with the "it hasn't happened to me, so I'm not worried or bothered by the lock" type of attitude, I don't see S&W making any changes in the foreseeable future...

Heck, on the S&W forum, you can get an infraction and possibly even banned for "bashing" AND/OR complaining about the lock... Ask me how I know...
I've got a safe full of pre-lock S&Ws. There's no need for me to waste money on an inferior product which I could never trust. There are a lot of weird passive-aggressive things going on at S&W, like their bizarre placement of the front sight on their M1917 clone at the very end of the barrel.

As for the S&W Forums, other than for VERY specific technical questions, I have no interest in a "domelights.com" retread.
 
I think there is incentive to make no lock guns but S&W has yet to recognize it. A good portion of firearms sales are made to people who already have plenty of guns but are adding new or interesting things to their collections. They could sell an awful lot of no lock guns to folks who already own lock versions in my opinion.
 
And the old pre lock guns were fitted up MUCH better........

I hear this often but I think it is as much sour grapes as reality. Those that hate the internal lock guns want other reasons to also hate the new revolvers and like their old revolvers. I own and have used in competition N-frames spanning the change. My 610 is an all forged parts cut-rifling, my 625 is pre-lock post-MIM cut rifling (so is my M29 but its a hunting only gun), my 627 is post-lock post-MIM, ECM rifled barrel. They all work for me when I do my part.

The USPSA Revolver Nationals since 2014 has been dominated by the 8-shot revolvers, for the past three years the majority of the match has been shot with 9mm 8-shot revolvers (eclipsing 38 Short Colt in 38/357 mag guns). Some of the best and highest volume revolver shooters in the country are shooting new internal lock, MIM guns (would be interesting to know how many have removed the lock). The winner of 2016, 2017, and 2018 match did so with a 929. You have to go back to 2015 to find a pre lock gun in the top spot and the guy that won in 2015 is now using a 929 also.

Talk to gun-smiths that sets up revolvers for USPSA shooters and most of them will tell you the new revolvers (barring QC issues) are more consistent and thus easier to do action jobs on. I can understand the lock hate but the new guns run as well or better than the old one. If the old one could give a competitive advantage those shooters at the top of the game would be seeking out old 627 and converting them to 9mm but it seems the 929 is the better revolver.
 
They have no incentive to change the design and/or offer no lock versions of their revolvers in the same way that they offer no safety versions of their M&P semis...
The problem with this, they already offer their Centennial J frame revolvers without the ILS. All of them including the M442, M642 and the M340.
 
A couple of technical questions;

1. As I have the urge to acquire the S&W Model 69 it is possible to disable the lock by using something like Lock Tight? Could enough be squeeze into the lock to prevent the parts from moving?

2. A popular activity on THR is bashing Taurus handguns. Yet I can not recall reading about the Internal Lock failing on their revolvers. I have no concerns about the I.L. on my Taurus as it seems to be well designed. But, I have not shot very many rounds through it and it is unlikely I will use it for self-defense (except for rattlesnake).
 
A couple of technical questions;

1. As I have the urge to acquire the S&W Model 69 it is possible to disable the lock by using something like Lock Tight? Could enough be squeeze into the lock to prevent the parts from moving?

2. A popular activity on THR is bashing Taurus handguns. Yet I can not recall reading about the Internal Lock failing on their revolvers. I have no concerns about the I.L. on my Taurus as it seems to be well designed. But, I have not shot very many rounds through it and it is unlikely I will use it for self-defense (except for rattlesnake).

The best way to disable the S&W internal lock is to remove it and plug the hole. There are several sources of plugs and several different videos on the internet on how to remove the lock parts and install a plug.
 
I hear this often but I think it is as much sour grapes as reality.

Both can be true: Even I concede the older pre-lock guns generally had better fit and finish than newer ones. It doesn't mean they categorically shot any better, were more accurate or were "better" for every application, as @mcb eluded to below...

Some of the best and highest volume revolver shooters in the country are shooting new internal lock, MIM guns (would be interesting to know how many have removed the lock)

...when it comes to competition shooting, the newer guns are sorta like the "small block Chevy": I might love driving my Benz every day, but if I were to race, I'd buy a small block Chevy, tune it to get it competitive, then run the batsnot out of it. Not only would I not be beating my Benz up, I wouldn't be racing with gear that handicaps me from the start.

As suggested, the design of the newer guns makes them much more amenable to competition - from the 8-shot configuration, frame-mounted FP, aftermarket parts, ease of tuning, etc. - if you want to compete (and actually be competitive), get a newer gun. They might have the lock, but I've never seen or had an issue, and it's removable to boot.
 
mcb,

You must of missed my comment about The Plug in Post 43.

My question is can the small parts of the I.L. be easily glued together to prevent it from being activated either accidently or on purpose?

It would save the need for buying The Plug while keeping the original parts in the gun. I have blue Lock Tight on hand, good gunsmith screwdrivers and know how to disassemble and reassemble S&W revolvers.

(I understand Red Lock Tight to be permanent non-removeable whereas Blue can be removed).
 
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My question is can the small parts of the I.L. be easily glued together to prevent it from being activated either accidently or on purpose?

It's been a while since I've messed with it, but IIRC, you can simply remove the flag. It just lifts right off (after you remove the hammer).
 
mcb,

You must of missed my comment about The Plug in Post 43.

My question is can the small parts of the I.L. be easily glued together to prevent it from being activated either accidently or on purpose?

It would save the need for buying The Plug while keeping the original parts in the gun. I have blue Lock Tight on hand, good gunsmith screwdrivers and know how to disassemble and reassemble S&W revolvers.

Yep missed that post, sorry. I don't see why you couldn't Loctite the parts in the unlocked position. De-grease them well before hand and be careful to only get it on the lock/frame when you do it.

I have also seen instruction that simply takes the flag out removes a feature off the flag and re-installs. With that feature removed from the flag part the lock no longer functions thus disabling the lock. Seems a bit sketchy to me only in that someone might acquirer the revolver later and thinks the lock works when it doesn't.
 
I think there is incentive to make no lock guns but S&W has yet to recognize it. A good portion of firearms sales are made to people who already have plenty of guns but are adding new or interesting things to their collections. They could sell an awful lot of no lock guns to folks who already own lock versions in my opinion.
This is borne out by the fact that for some unfathomable reason, S&W revolvers on websites are almost ALWAYS shown on the RIGHT side, NEVER the left.

They KNOW it's unpopular.
 
It's been a while since I've messed with it, but IIRC, you can simply remove the flag. It just lifts right off (after you remove the hammer).
I've heard that that can cause problems. The plug is a better, albeit imperfect solution.

A better solution would be a combination plug and plate which filled in the slot where the flag protrudes.

I recently posted a question on the S&W Forums asking whether anybody had 3d printed such a solution, but got no useful responses.
 
In 2015 S&W sold 274,136 revolvers (Data from BATF). That was more than any other revolver manufacturer. They own 31% of the revolver market and sales of revolvers have trended upwards since 2005 . If locks, or the quality of their guns, were a problem they wouldn't own the market. Glomming on to a few problems out of the millions of guns sold is kinda pathetic.
 
In 2015 S&W sold 274,136 revolvers (Data from BATF). That was more than any other revolver manufacturer. They own 31% of the revolver market and sales of revolvers have trended upwards since 2005 . If locks, or the quality of their guns, were a problem they wouldn't own the market. Glomming on to a few problems out of the millions of guns sold is kinda pathetic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson#Clinton_agreement

It looks to me like powerful interests, working behind the scenes and working through stooge politicians and corporate lackeys, conspired to take over S&W and implement these locks.
Was it because Saf-T-Hammer Corporation just really wanted to sell locks?
Or is there something more sinister going on here? ... Like the gradual and incremental infringement of gun rights by attacking from all possible sides.
 
In 2015 S&W sold 274,136 revolvers (Data from BATF). That was more than any other revolver manufacturer. They own 31% of the revolver market and sales of revolvers have trended upwards since 2005 . If locks, or the quality of their guns, were a problem they wouldn't own the market. Glomming on to a few problems out of the millions of guns sold is kinda pathetic.
Calling those who have a different opinion than yours pathetic is insulting and just wrong.
 
Calling those who have a different opinion than yours pathetic is insulting and just wrong.
Nah. If he's right, then it's not wrong to insult people who are wrong.
I just don't think he's right, given that:
  • Failures are real and they do matter.
  • [Almost] nobody wants the lock.
  • [Almost] nobody needs the lock.
  • The lock is probably only there because of kowtowing/capitulating to, or being a subsidiary of anti-American interests (but which are disguised as corporate greed)
Some opinions are really stupid though and should be called out as such, if not mocked mercilessly... after showing why it's so in a rational and logical fashion.
 
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