Is it worth trying a heavier bullet?

[wombat13]

My Ruger Hawkeye in .300WM shoots 165 gr bullets well but not 180s. Is it worth trying a heavier bullet?

I spent years working on 180 gr loads and tried several different factory loads, but can’t find any that group consistently better than 1.5” @ 100 yds. The first 165 gr handload and the only 165 factory load I tried both do better than 1”.

Might a heavier bullet group better than 180s or is it likely that Only light bullets will group well?

 

[Grumulkin]

You don't mention what powder you're using. A heavier bullet might do better with a different powder.

I use Nosler 200 grain Accubonds in my 300 WM. You don't say whether your WM is a Winchester or a Weatherby variety but no matter since I use the same bullet in both and get 3 shot groups well under an inch at 100 yards.

In addition, 180 grain bullets are not created equal. You might try a different brand.

 

[CoalTrain49]

What is your barrel twist?

1/12=168-170. 1/10=170-220.

That's just a guide.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Not sure what bullet your even using to begin with. Some more data would be very helpful like what bullets are you using and powder as already mentioned.

If the bullets you speak of are not match grade i cant say what you may get as far as accuracy goes if that makes any since.

From that rifle its my understanding that 178gr work best at distance. Which brings up another question what is your distance goal?

 

[Riomouse911]

There’s a lot left out, like what you intend to shoot/hunt with the load as well...

A 165 monolithic (Barnes X, etc.) seem to work as well on big game as heavier lead core bullets do, so if that style/weight is shooting well it’ll handle anything from pronghorn up to moose. I’d be happy with a sub 1” load like that and leave it as is. Same if it is another premium bullet like a partition or an a-frame, those punch above their weight as well.

Stay safe!

 

[wombat13]

The rifle is a Ruger Hawkeye SS with laminate stock. Ruger indicates it is a 1/10 twist, but I haven't measured it. For 180 grain bullets in factory loads I tried Nosler BT, Nosler Partition, Federal Fusion, Winchester SuperX. Handloads I tried Nosler BT, Nosler Accubond, Sierra GameKing, Hornady SST with various powders (at least RL22, IMR 4831, IMR 4350, Hybrid 100V). The best I could get was 1.25" to 1.5" groups. The Ruger has a short magazine, so I load to the max OAL that will feed from the magazine and then work up the powder charge. This took me years because I can't get to the range very often.

I then tried 165 gr Barnes TSX with IMR 4831. Sub 1" groups, most in the .75" range, sometimes up to 1". The very first powder I tried with the bullet! I just thought it was the bullet or I got lucky. Well, I've not been happy with the TSX bullet on whitetail (too many deer with no blood trail), so I bought Federal Premium ammo loaded with 165 gr Partitions - again sub MOA, with the first factory load I tried in that bullet weight. Did I just get lucky again? If so, how is it possible that I never got lucky with any one of the handloads and factory loads in 180 gr?

My goal is to find one "do-it-all" hunting load with great accuracy. I could go back to my handloads with 180 gr Nosler BTs which always gave me great performance, but it is hard to go back to a load that groups 1.5" now that I know the rifle and I are capable of groups about half that size. Probably 90% or more of the game I'll ever take with that rifle will be whitetail deer. We've got a lot of black bear on our property, but they never seem to walk by during the season. I hope to hunt out west someday so elk or even antelope are a possibility.

So, I'm just wondering if it is worth trying a heavier bullet or stick with 165 gr? I've got plenty of powders that I could try with a heavy bullet: IMR 8133, 7977, 7828, 4831, 4350, H100v.

 

[wankerjake]

What are your hunting distances?


It is weird that it won’t shoot 180’s. I realize that’s a lot of trials.

I still would try the 200gr Accubond if it was me.

 

[.308 Norma]

Probably 90% or more of the game I'll ever take with that rifle will be whitetail deer. We've got a lot of black bear on our property, but they never seem to walk by during the season. I hope to hunt out west someday so elk or even antelope are a possibility.

Howdy wombat13,
I've never killed a whitetail deer as we have mostly mule deer around here. However, except for a couple of years flirtation with a 270 Win, I've been killing mule deer, black bears, elk and pronghorn antelope with 30 caliber rifles (everything from 308 Win to 300 Win Mag) since I was 15. I'm 71 now, and I still have never used a bullet heavier than 165 grains in my 30 caliber rifles, even in my beloved 308 Norma Mag that I use for "out west" big game nowadays.
And it's more than my "just never have needed" bullets heavier than 165grs for killing big game in the lower 48. I really believe well built, 165gr bullets from 30-06s and 30 caliber magnums give me the best combination of velocity, flat trajectory, accuracy, expansion, and penetration. While I've probably heard and read a thousand arguments over what weight big game bullets are best, I won't participate in any such arguments...30 caliber, 165gr bullets work for me.
Sorry...I guess that sounded like a bit of a rant, and I didn't answer your question about trying heavier bullets in your 300WM. So I'll answer now: No, I don't see any reason for trying heavier bullets in your rifle. I don't know why 180s don't group as well as 165s from your rifle, maybe it's the rate of twist, but who cares? IMO and IME, 165s are not only all you need for big game in the lower 48, they are best.
I like Hornady 165gr BTSPs in my 30-06, and Sierra 165gr HPBTs in my 308 Norma Mag.

 

[Riomouse911]

Based on whatcha said it’s used for, why tinker with whats working?

Buy the 165 gr partitions and sharpen your skinner because it’s going to be used come deer season!

Stay safe!

 

[Random 8]

I notice both of the sub MOA loads you have found are flat based bullets. All of the handload bullets and half of the factory offerings in 180 are boat tail designs. Try a 180 flat base handloaded, such as the Hornady interlock or Speer Hot core. Both quality deer bullets and strong enough for larger game in that weight. I've often found flat based designs easier to squeeze groups out of than boat tails, especially when working around a short magazine where BTs can't be run out close to the lands.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with a 165 Partition for pretty much any game in North America short of grizzly. You might try the 165Speer Hot core and drop the velocity a bit if you're concerned about too much damage on deer, and see if they group for you.

 

[Varminterror]

Before the new barrel, I tried out my Ruger Hawkeye All-Weather 300WM with 200-215 ELD’s, VLD’s, and Hybrids. Retumbo and H1k, shot lights out. New barrel is a 1:9”, probably didn’t need it, but might run 230’s - but this is a 31” Bartlein Heavy Varmint - very different rifle than it started.

 

[wombat13]

I notice both of the sub MOA loads you have found are flat based bullets. All of the handload bullets and half of the factory offerings in 180 are boat tail designs. Try a 180 flat base handloaded, such as the Hornady interlock or Speer Hot core. Both quality deer bullets and strong enough for larger game in that weight. I've often found flat based designs easier to squeeze groups out of than boat tails, especially when working around a short magazine where BTs can't be run out close to the lands.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with a 165 Partition for pretty much any game in North America short of grizzly. You might try the 165Speer Hot core and drop the velocity a bit if you're concerned about too much damage on deer, and see if they group for you.

I noticed that as well, so I recently bought some additional factory ammo for a test. I shot 5-shot groups with the following 180 gr factory ammo: Fusion (they don't call it flat-base but it's nearly flat base), Hornady American Whitetail, Federal Premium Nosler Partition, Federal Power Shok (I think this is the Hot Cor bullet). I also shot a five shot group with my 180 gr Nosler BT handloads. The process was fire one shot of the first ammo. Clean the rifle with 2-3 wet patches then a dry patch. Fire one shot of the next ammo. Etc. All shots were using a Led Sled to take human error out of the picture. Here is the target:



Federal Power Shok grouped slightly better than my handload, but the rest were worse. I don't think this supports the idea that my rifle prefers flat-base bullets.

 

[wombat13]

What are your hunting distances?


It is weird that it won’t shoot 180’s. I realize that’s a lot of trials.

I still would try the 200gr Accubond if it was me.

Right now, most of my shots are under 100 yards (in the NE woods). I occassionally shoot over a field. I've only taken one shot on an animal over 200 yards.

 

[wombat13]

Howdy wombat13,
I've never killed a whitetail deer as we have mostly mule deer around here. However, except for a couple of years flirtation with a 270 Win, I've been killing mule deer, black bears, elk and pronghorn antelope with 30 caliber rifles (everything from 308 Win to 300 Win Mag) since I was 15. I'm 71 now, and I still have never used a bullet heavier than 165 grains in my 30 caliber rifles, even in my beloved 308 Norma Mag that I use for "out west" big game nowadays.
And it's more than my "just never have needed" bullets heavier than 165grs for killing big game in the lower 48. I really believe well built, 165gr bullets from 30-06s and 30 caliber magnums give me the best combination of velocity, flat trajectory, accuracy, expansion, and penetration. While I've probably heard and read a thousand arguments over what weight big game bullets are best, I won't participate in any such arguments...30 caliber, 165gr bullets work for me.
Sorry...I guess that sounded like a bit of a rant, and I didn't answer your question about trying heavier bullets in your 300WM. So I'll answer now: No, I don't see any reason for trying heavier bullets in your rifle. I don't know why 180s don't group as well as 165s from your rifle, maybe it's the rate of twist, but who cares? IMO and IME, 165s are not only all you need for big game in the lower 48, they are best.
I like Hornady 165gr BTSPs in my 30-06, and Sierra 165gr HPBTs in my 308 Norma Mag.

Do you take mostly longer range shots? I'm worried about driving bullets too fast for short range shots. The large majority of deer I've taken have been inside of 100 yards. Closest about 15 yards and longest just a bit over 200. That's why I tried the TSX, but I don't think it opens well on whitetail deer when you shoot them in the boiler room. I could shoot in the shoulder, but I follow Art Eatman's advice and don't shoot em in the eating parts.

 

[wankerjake]

Honestly 1.5” is more than fine for those distances. I know it’s tough to not shot the most accurate load possible but that’s plenty good for short range hunting and heavier bullets will hold together better short range and waste less meat.

Agree the TSX shines on shoulder shots. For lung shots and minimal meat waste, shoot a 180-200gr bonded bullet. My opinion. I favor Accubonds.

Was extremely pleased at how little meat was wasted on my buck this year, 300wsm, 180 Accubond, 125 yards. I’m always pleased with how little meat is wasted with that load from 80lb coues deer to bull elk.

 

[.308 Norma]

Do you take mostly longer range shots? I'm worried about driving bullets too fast for short range shots

No sir, I can't say I "mostly" take longer range shots, but I do occasionally. Years ago, I shot a large, mule deer buck right in the thorax (I guess that's what it's called) with my 30-06 at an honest to goodness, paced off, 460 yards. He did a backflip, kicked a couple of times, and laid still.
We recovered the perfectly mushroomed, 165gr Hdy BTSP from high inside his left, rear thigh. We also saw where the bullet had grazed along the inside of his rib cage for a few inches as it traveled the length of his body on the inside. If memory serves me correctly, the bullet still weighed a little better than 150grs.
However, I understand your concern about 165gr bullets being driven too fast for short range shots. And I whole-heartily agree with you, especially considering that I like boattail bullets...which I think tend to shed their jackets easier than flat base bullets. I told about how great that 165gr Hdy BTSP performed on a large mule deer at 460 yards, when it didn't hit any large bones. But the truth is, I've also killed a few deer with 165gr Hdy BTSPs at 2800fps from my 30-06 at less than 100yards. And I hit them too far forward, in the front shoulders...the bullets practically disintegrated. The deer were still dead though, and we just had to be a little more careful that we didn't bite into a tiny pieces of bullet when we ate them.
At any rate, "Interlock" design or not, I've found those Hdy 165gr BTSPs at 2800fps from my 30-06 deadly, but somewhat fragile. They shed their jackets occasionally. The animals are still dead, and still dead real quick, which is the most important thing. But if a hunter is looking for perfectly mushroomed bullets that retained 90%+ of their original weights, they should probably look for different bullets.
As I said before, I'm using 165gr Sierra HPBTs "GameKings" in my 308 Norma Mag. According to the advertisement, the "GameKings" have heavier jackets and harder cores for "reliable expansion and deep penetration."
We'll see. I haven't had my 308 Norma all that long, and all I've killed with it so far was one large buck at about 200 yards, and a couple of smaller ones at about 75 or 80 yards. I'm kicking the bullets out at a little better than 3,100fps, and I've yet to recover one of them because I shot the large buck and one of the smaller ones through the ribs. The other smaller buck I shot right under his chin at he was facing me, and I actually saw the bullet kick up dust on the hillside behind him. He dropped in his tracks.

 

[wombat13]

Honestly 1.5” is more than fine for those distances. I know it’s tough to not shot the most accurate load possible but that’s plenty good for short range hunting and heavier bullets will hold together better short range and waste less meat.

Agree the TSX shines on shoulder shots. For lung shots and minimal meat waste, shoot a 180-200gr bonded bullet. My opinion. I favor Accubonds.

Was extremely pleased at how little meat was wasted on my buck this year, 300wsm, 180 Accubond, 125 yards. I’m always pleased with how little meat is wasted with that load from 80lb coues deer to bull elk.

I was thinking of trying the 200 gr Hot Cor. Should be slowed down enough and heavy enough to not blow up on a close shot, but being a soft point it should still open up at longer ranges. Also, the Fed Power Shock is the most accurate factory 180 gr ammo I’ve found for my rifle and I believe it is the Hot Cor.

 

[jmr40]

Unless you have big bear on the menu there isn't any real reason to go heavier than 165's. If heavier bullets shoot well, there is no downside either and I'd like to have that option though. A high BC 175-180 gr bullet will extend the usable range somewhat but a good 165 will do anything you need. A 165 with decent BC's started at about 2850 fps is still going fast enough to expand out past 500 yards. As long as impact speeds are around 2800 fps or slower you won't have any problems with bullets blowing up. But you want about 1800 minimum for expansion. This is for lead based bullets. Copper bullets need closer to 2000 fps minimum impact speed with no limit on how fast they will stay together. That is one of the reasons for going lighter than normal with copper and shooting them fast.

I'm sorta in the same boat. My Winchester 70 shoots 165/168 gr bullets better than all of the 180 gr loads I've tried. Oddly, my 308's shoot 180's extremely well. But for anything in the lower 48 I don't feel at all handicapped with 165 gr bullets. If you're worried about penetration the copper bullets in 150 gr will out penetrate most conventional 180 gr bullets. You can do just fine on bigger stuff going that route and use a softer 165 for smaller game.