Is my Bobcat loaded?!

[HB]

Recently purchased a CVA Bobcat for a great price online as a back-up or loaner gun for deer season. I pulled the rod from under the barrel and dropped it down the bore and quite a bit sticks out past the muzzle! The rod is about 1/4'' shorter than the barrel, measured from muzzle to the very rear of the exterior of the barrel. Currently, the rod sticks about 4'' past the muzzle.
Obviously I don't know how far the rod should protrude with or without a charge loaded so... It seems likely that it is unloaded just by the fact that the rod bounces quite a bit if you drop it an inch or so; presumably this wouldn't happen if the rod was landing on soft lead rather than steel.

Any tips
How would one remove the barrel as well?

Otherwise, this seems to be a decent gun considering it costs $50. Finish looks like spray paint, and the stock is plastic, sights are crude, but the trigger is ok and supposedly they shoot good enough.

Also, does this rifle prefer round balls or sabots?

HB

 

[scrat]

from the front of the stock on the side there is what looks like a oval with a key in it. thats a wedge. Drive that wedge out and the barrel will come off. As for telling if it has a ball in it. once you get the barrel off take to the faucet and fill it up with water. If it is plugged the water will stay in. if its not you will get a steady stream of water coming from the nipple. If it is plugged and not knowing what is in there. the best thing to use is one of those co2 kits. Basicly a can of compressed air you put over the nipple and push the button. Poor mans way is to use an air compressor cranked up high. Just make sure the barrel is pointing in a safe direction

 

[Hawkeye748]

Very likely the gun is loaded. Remember, many folks are shooting sabots now days and the bullet you are hitting might be a jacketed one, hence the bounce.

I too think that you should soak the barrel in water. Wets any charge. If you don't feel comfortable removing the bullet, take it to a competent Gunsmith. The CO2 is one way of removing a bullet however it is not always possible.

If this cannot be done, try removing the breechplug. This will allow you to dump the powder charge and then drive the bullet out with a brass or aluminum rod. Steel will damage your gun if you are not VERY careful.

If the breechplug will not come out, get a can or bucket and place the beech in it. Fill the can until the area where you know the bullet is with a quality penetrating oil. I use KROIL. Pour an ounce or so into the barrel and set it aside for a few days. Allow the oil to work. I have taken breechplugs out that might have been in for 130 years or more. Should loosen up after a day or so that you can remove it.

There is another way of removing fouled charges if you know when the weapon was fouled. It is not safe to remove an old charge this way, so I will skip it for now.

 

[Voodoochile]

Those CVA Breach Plugs do not come out easily because of their design, you would need to remove the drum first which could cause more damage than help so I would not suggest that.

If you remove the barrel from the stock like scrat mentioned & tried the water trick to see if any comes out of the nipple, that will determine if there is truely anything in there.

If there is something in there, I would contact your local gunsmith to help you out.

BTW, I have one of these rifles & yes they shoot very well although I managed to change the stock to a nice Walnut stock to help absorb the recoil.
The way times have been I've thought of selling my lil Bobcat too.

 

[arcticap]

I wouldn't try to take out the drum or breechplug.
See the diagram and the thread for reasons why.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329660

There's many ways to check to see if the barrel is loaded or not.
First of all, the bottom of the powder chamber is usually at the same point as the clean out screw which is next to the nipple that's threaded into the drum. That point could be as much as 1/2 inch from where the loaded ball would be rammed home in the breech if it were loaded. Then a round ball would occupy another 1/2 inch of barrel space from there. So that's about where the ramrod would be measured from in an empty barrel, the beginning of the powder chamber which can be viewed in the cutaway picture.

I would remove the cleanout screw and nipple to see if there was powder in the drum. If powder wasn't visible, then I would insert a thin .22 rifle brass or aluminum cleaning rod into the muzzle to see if it will reach all of the way to the bottom of the barrel and become visible at the cleanout screw. Some flash channel designs may not allow it to become visible, so then alternatively I would try to probe the shape of the bottom of the barrel to see if the powder chamber shape is identifiable verses the shape of a projectile. One is a hump and the other is a dip, and could further be a narrow dip. A brass breech scraper can also help to tell if your probe is at the bottom of the barrel or not.
Some of the new powerful LED flashlights can be used to peer into the barrel from the muzzle end to light up the inside of the barrel all of the way to the breech. See if any light is visible through the clean out screw opening. Go into the closet if necessary to see if there's any faint light coming through.
If progress is still not made then while shining a light into the clean out screw opening in the drum, I would peer into the muzzle to see if any light could be detected coming in from the other end. I'll sometimes lift the back end of the barrel up near a light bulb and turn it until the light finds a path in so that I can detect it. Or I'll have someone hold a strong light at the clean out hole to allow light to enter the back end of the barrel. I do this after cleaning an empty barrel to see how clean it is.
If the bore is shiney enough, the light coming in through the back of the barrel should be reflected and be visible to the naked eye at the muzzle. It will light up the barrel's shiney interior even if only faintly. Wearing safety glasses to keep crud out of one's eye is a good idea if the barrel is being lifted up and tilted towards it. Sometimes it helps to place a hand around the muzzle and to fist it, and then to place the eye against the fisted hand to peer in to eliminate other sources of light and to allow the naked eye to pick up the faint light in a dirty barrel. If light can't be detected, the bore can be swabbed to make it shiney enough to reflect some of the light.
But if the light is blocked and the other methods aren't working either, then a decision needs to be made about what kind of obstruction there could be in the breech.
That's why careful probing and measuring can all help to more accurately deduce the situation.
I think that the 1 in 48" Bobcat prefers round balls, but it might shoot some saboted bullets and bare lead conicals equally well.

 

[Hawkeye748]

In light of the breechplug on the Bobcat, I would let a Gunsmith tackle the problem. Something is definitely in there, most likely, bullet and powder.

 

[kanook]

don't they make a ball remover attachment that should be in every blackpowder owners kit?

 

[Hawkeye748]

Yes, but it is not very effective, particularly if the load has been there awhile.

 

[Curator]

Rather than attempt to pull this load from the muzzle, find an automotive "Zerk" fitting (grease fitting) with the appropriate threads. I'm not sure but I think the threads on a CVA nipple are 6X.75mm, but you should check to be sure.

Remove the nipple, screw the zerk fitting into the nipple hole and using a high pressure hand-operated grease gun fill the barrel with grease. This will slowly push the "load" out without risking any damage to the bore.

I have done this many times to muzzle loading guns with stuff jammed in the bore. It works great. Most recent one had a sabot down the barrel first then three pyrodex pellets topped with a seriously compressed maxi-ball into which was screwed a ball puller. The ball puller and ramrod end had broken off as well. A "gunsmith" had tried the CO2 route and high pressure compressed air to no avail. He pronounced it "unfixable."

 

[Hawkeye748]

Curator, excellent idea if you can find a grease fitting that fits the nipple thread.

 

[HB]

I'm about to pull the nipple and clean out screw, but it is beggining to look like it is loaded. Mostly because the ram rod comes a good bit short of the nipple...

Thanks for the help, I'll keep ya'll posted

HB

 

[HB]

Yes it is!
I removed the clean out screw and a little powder fell out. Also, it is pretty obvious because CO2 from a bike tire inflater wouldn't pass from nipple to muzzle... I figured this would work just as good as a real muzzle loader unloader, so I gave it a try to no avil. You would think 850 psi of CO2 would dislodge the round but it didn't. I may just buy a commercial one because the valves may be different...
Well, this might be a little harder than expected

Thanks,
HB

 

[scrat]

Last resort way in light of not taking it to a gunsmith. Remove the clean out screw and the nipple. flush with water to remove the powder. Do this a lot. then let it dry out. when you think its dry pour some rubbing alcohal in it. this will help remove any water. Same time you give the rubbing alcohal about 20 minutes and the chamber will be bone dry. now measure out 50 grains of 2ffg and carefully pour it into either the nipple hole or the clean out. if 50 grains goes in easy. then i would increase by 10 grains at a time stopping no more than 70. once the powder over fills. Replace the nipple or clean out. Then Take the ram rod and tap the projectile down a tad more to meet the powder firmly. Now just shoot it at the range.

 

[Voodoochile]

I hate to disagree with you scrat bud, but what if it is dubble loaded?

If he knew the load that was used & the rod was measured & was verified that only 1 load was in there then sure by all means, you wouldn't need all that much powder, just enough to load up the firing chamber "maybe 10gr." & then pack the projectile against the new powder, but again this is if the rod was marked & he knew the load used because a dubble loaded rifle is a horrible thing..

 

[Hawkeye748]

I think the grease method is the safest non-gunsmith method.

Powder through the nipple is the method I refered to in an earlier post. Without knowing the load or how long it has been there, it is just too dangerous. Be assured if the load has been there very long, the breech is corroded . This method is a little dicey without knowing how long its been there.

If you know the load, time its been there, and condition of the breech area, a little 4Fg, a grain or so, should ignite the load. A load that has been there awhile might have damaged the barrel and breech.

Find someone with a CO2 fire extinguisher. Put the penetrating oil in there and let it work to loosen things up. Replace the fitting on the fire extinguisher with a grease gun fitting. Hold it firmly, VERY FIRMLY, over the nipple. ( If you don't, the hose will kick back whack you very firmly. I speak as a victim of a friend failing to hold on tight to the hose.) Should blow it out. The Fire extinguisher has about 18-2000 psi in it. If it doesn't, gunsmith is likely only recourse.

Replace things back on your friends fire extinguisher.

 

[HB]

Thanks for the help. I have to say I'm surprised that the CO2 tire inflator didn't blow it out but who knows. I'll going to try to yank it with the screw tip jag for a cleaning rod. If that doesn't work, I am pretty good friends with a gunsmith... ergo, free! Probably end up with a lot of work for a cheap gun but what the heck, I'm off school and bored.


HB

 

[kentucky bucky]

DO NOT TRY TO SHOOT IT OUT!!! Some numbskull might have loaded it with smokeless. Take it to somebody that knows blackpowder guns.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Just curious..How many more months do ya'll expect it'll take ya'll to figure out how to get a ball out of a musket barrel? Oh, don't hurry, don't hurry. Lot's of us are getting a good laugh out of this..Great White Hunter..

 

[dwave]

Glad to see that you had something useful to add there Gent.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Always!..Tell me Mr. Dwave. (You'vd got to understand here that I'm just a poor ol' country boy and I don't understand these things) Do you have a habit of picking up firearms and looking at them and fondling them and maybe even buying them and carrying them home and all around without even bothering to check and see if they're loaded? If you do then I don't even want you in the same county I live in. Have a wonderful day Mr. Dwave..Great White Hunter...

 

[dwave]

No I don't have a habit of it, never bought one loaded, but obviously you didn't read that he got it online. You posted nothing useful and you seem to be enjoying that he is having a problem. Very nice.

Edited out last comment. Was wondering about the great white hunter, but seen that he is using it in all posts.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I'm through with the conversation. You don't need to write anymore to me sir. I won't be able to read it. You will be on my ignore list in less than 60 seconds..Great White Hunter...

 

[dwave]

Breaks my heart.