Issues with Wolf Gold in ARs other than S&W?

[kBob]

This Nationalist Chinese made Wolf brass boxer cased .223 55 grain FMJ looks nice and is certainly priced right.....

but.....

The S&W warning is a bit scary and I was wondering it anyone has had other issues with it or can tell me about good experiences with it.

If I can find a 20 box or two I want to get and try them before I splurge for a case.

Comments folks?

-kBob

 

[troy fairweather]

This Nationalist Chinese made Wolf brass boxer cased .223 55 grain FMJ looks nice and is certainly priced right.....

but.....

The S&W warning is a bit scary and I was wondering it anyone has had other issues with it or can tell me about good experiences with it.

If I can find a 20 box or two I want to get and try them before I splurge for a case.

Comments folks?

-kBob

is the warning for not shooting these in a 223. 5.56 are hotter and the throat is longer then a 223.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

If I remember right Wolf brass 223 is mane in Taiwan. It is loaded to 223 Rem. spec. It does burn a little dirty, but is very reliable. If shooting it in a carbine the standard buffer works best. It may choke a little with heavier buffers.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive used it in my ars, and shot a whole case of regular steel case out of my mini in a day with no issue. I agree with Gunny tho, stuff does make a mess.

 

[Theohazard]

The S&W warning is a bit scary

What does the S&W warning say?

 

[VoodooMountain]

*** Advisory Warning - June 8, 2017 ***WOLF Performance Ammunition has received notifications relating to Smith & Wesson M&P-15 rifles that are discharging out of battery which is evidenced by a lack of damage to the chamber and barrel extension. This shows that the rifle’s bolt did not lock into the barrel, yet the hammer was still able to strike the firing pin to detonate the cartridge and cause a failure. These failures can cause major damage to the firearm and bodily injury. As a result, WOLF Ammunition does NOT recommend using our ammunition with any Smith and Wesson M&P-15 rifles until this issue is resolved. Moving forward, WOLF’s 100% Performance Guarantee will not cover any damages associated with Smith & Wesson M&P 15 rifle or rifle created failures exhibiting the above described characteristics.

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This advisory is from wolf and I find it strange

 

[troy fairweather]

sounds like soft primers put in a titanium firing pin there cheap.

 

[Slamfire]

I have examined some web postings on this topic and am still baffled by Wolf's statement. From what I can tell, the S&W M&P-15 is an standard AR15 type action. Stoner designed an action in which the firing pin is positively blocked until cam down. This is different from the Garand mechanism which the free floating firing pin is free to impact the primer virtually throughout total bolt movement. There are lots of reports of in battery and out of battery slamfires in Garand mechanisms. This mechanism relies 100% on primer insensitivity to prevent an inbattery or out of battery slamfire, because the firing pin is able to make incidental contact with a primer, prior to cam down. And the free floating firing pin will rebound of the primer, once the bolt is in battery. This image of of a M1 carbine receiver, which is functionally similiar to a Garand, probably easier to mill the firing pin cocking cam:





However, to reiterate, Stoner's action, the firing pin cannot go forward to touch a primer until after cam down:



But, you can still have "out of battery" slamfires in AR's. And from what I have heard, it is due to bolt bounce. Reports of in battery slamfires with AR's are surprisingly common, I saw one, I had one. The theory I heard, and believe,for an out of battery slamfire to occurr, is that the bolt carrier will bounce back, unlocking the bolt. And, before this happens, or maybe as it happens, the firing pin has bounced off a sensitive primer which ignites. With the lugs out of battery, things can get very messy.

So, if factory ammunition is out of battery slamfiring in an AR15 mechanism, that is not the fault of the mechanism, it is a fault of the ammunition. That is, the round was loaded with primers too sensitive for safe operation of the weapon.

So, I cannot see how Wolf's warning is accurate at all.

 

[Skylerbone]

Many times in a cya situation both parties will fault the other in a spat. If the above by @Slamfire is correct, it may also be that S&W’s use of a standard carbine buffer (3oz) is contributing to the problem. They would not however be alone in that boat and I have no idea which spring/buffer combo is in fact used in the M&P.

I most certainly agree that soft primers have no business in an AR.

 

[Riomouse911]

Dunno, the steel case Wolf stuff seems to work ok on the rare occasion I shoot it. Same goes for Wolf brass.

I don’t have a S&W rifle though, but since they’re similar AR pattern rifles I am not sure if that makes a difference.

So much of the brass stuff has fallen in price to where 55 gr fmj PMC bronze, Federal, Win etc is similar in price to the wolf gold... you may never need to test the Wolf ammo.

Good luck and stay safe!

 

[Jackal]

Wolf Gold and Wolf Steel are 2 very different things. Wolf steel cased ammo is made in Russia, to a very low pricepoint. Wolf Gold brass cased is made in Taiwan to NATO specs. Its like comparing Federal American Eagle bulk FMJ to Gold Medal Match. Same company, totally different product line.

 

[cougar1717]

The problem is that the Wolf advisory does not provide enough information to definitively diagnose any problem other than to not use it in any S&W M&P15 rifle. Wolf has probably either paid for broken guns or been sued such that they had to issue an advisory.

The advisory is written in such broad language that any of these could have been the problem:

1. Some posts in this thread assumed a soft primer cup - Wolf literally makes 3 kinds - NCSR (standard), NCSRM (standard, thick cup), and NC223 (magnum, thick cup - similar to CCI#41). It's possible the thin cup primers were used in boxer primed ammo, causing problems.
2. Along the same lines, we can't assume that the advisory is only for Wolf Gold products. Maybe it was for the Polyformance or the Classic lines. Those would be berdan primed.
3. We cannot assume that the problem caliber is 223 Rem. S&W makes the M&P15 -22, that had enough issues for Appleseed to not permit them at events as of 9/15/16 due to... guess what - out of battery discharge incidents. Wolf Performance ammunition includes rimfire 22LR. Remember, the advisory is dated 6/8/17. Which bears the question, "Did Wolf investigate and then issue their own advisory later, making our current discussion old news?"

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Most people don't like to shoot steel case ammo for one reason or another, and a lot of those reasons are unfounded. The two bad things about steel case ammo is that it's non-re-loadable and they have Bi-Metal bullet jackets. Bi-Metal jacketed bullets cause mote wear then copper jacketed bullets.
I have never cared for Wolf steel case, but I like TulAmmo steel case. TulAmmo has a new load called Range Friendly. It's loaded with cooper jacketed bullets. And at .22 cents a round, delivered to your door, it's a pretty good deal.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/tul...el-case-range-friendly-ta223556-p-108487.aspx

 

[Slamfire]

We cannot assume that the problem caliber is 223 Rem. S&W makes the M&P15 -22, that had enough issues for Appleseed to not permit them at events as of 9/15/16 due to... guess what - out of battery discharge incidents. Wolf Performance ammunition includes rimfire 22LR. Remember, the advisory is dated 6/8/17. Which bears the question, "Did Wolf investigate and then issue their own advisory later, making our current discussion old news?"

Good summary. I looked for something which would indicate whether the problem was S&W M&P 15's or M&P15-22's, and there was no information. I don't know anything about the 22 lr version, maybe the hammer can follow the bolt and push the firing pin forward in the rimfire version. Rimfires have exposed rims, which contain priming compound. Out of battery slamfires do happen in 22lr semi autos, you can find them if you search.

 

[imashooter]

I use Wolf Gold quite a bit and it's arguably the cleanest I've ever used. Which Wolf is being referred to as dirty?

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I use Wolf Gold quite a bit and it's arguably the cleanest I've ever used. Which Wolf is being referred to as dirty?

All of the Wolf steel is very dirty, but the Wolf Gold tends to be just a little dirtier then Lake City. But like I said before, it’s good stuff. The only down side it has for me is that it’s loaded to 223 Rem. specs. I can find good brass case 5.56 for a penny or two more per round.
Like
PRVI PARTIZAN 5.56MM M193 NATO AMMO 55 GRAIN FMJ BULK 1000 ROUNDS for $299.50 shipped to your door.
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/prv...-55-gr-fmj-bulk-1000-rounds-pp52-p-59063.aspx

 

[kenboyles72]

Not shot any kind of Wolf ammo, so don't know how it shoots. But, the out of battery issues are not with the ammo, this is a rifle issue. The S&W M&P 15 has had issues with all ammo. Like has been mentioned, the way the bolt on an AR is designed, there is/should be no way for the firing pin to contact a primer, till it is in full battery. The bolt could be out of spec, letting the pin come forward enough to strike the primer as soon as the lugs hit the chamber, before locking in. I have seen slam fires, but the bolt has actually locked or gone into full battery when it did.

On the subject of TulAmmo steel case, this is primarily the ammo I shoot and is pretty good ammo. I don't know what folk's idea of dirty is, but I have put a couple hundred through at a time and found my rifle not really fouled up, just a small amount of carbon. Only time my rifle gets dirty inside, is when I run 22lr through it and gets a cleaning when I get home, damn powder is everywhere, hardly clean it when I'm just running .223.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Our M&P 15's have shot nothing BUT Wolf Gold in them over the years. Never had a lick of problems with it.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

I'm not aware of a single thing S&W does differently with their ARs compared to any other $600 budget blaster.

My guess is that they had some out of battery issues with S&W ARs, simply because the S&W Sport is probably the most popular AR on the market. More shooters out there with them likely led to a high number of Smiths having out-of-battery kabooms just out of probability. Smith's lawyers probably gave Wolf some grief and forced them to add that statement.

If they're going out of their way to write a warning though, I'd probably heed it. Unless your rifle absolutely loves Wolf, there's no sense in taking any risk shooting the ammo when there's a dozen other ammo companies all offering the same $6-$7 a box FMJ.