J frame vs compact pistol ... expectations

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If you shoot revolvers and 1911s well, but struggle with striker fired guns then it’s probably the trigger action that is throwing you off. It took me a long time to gain confidence with a striker trigger and I also was puzzled as to why. I think having take up and creep in a striker trigger made it feel very uneven. Once I started approaching it as a two stage trigger, then my accuracy got better.
There are some really good striker triggers out there that no longer seem to have the two stage feel. The CZ P10C is the best example that I have tried.
 
I would say it may be that particular auto. I have shot all kinds of them over the years. I was fair with my Glock. Pretty darn good with my 1911 but the 92 fits and shoots as naturally as any I’ve ever had. Maybe you need to run some rentals.
 
If any range within an hour drive had a P99 I would have rented it. No dice. I had a local range order one for me ; by this time next week I'll know if my thought process was valid , or if it was wishful thinking.
 
The following is not meant to be argumentative and or condescending but when I was issued a 1911A1 no one asked me how it fit my hand. I was simply expected to use it effectively even thou I was Left-Handed. I was told excuses are like back sides everyone has one. I qualified Expert, much to my surprise. With as many choices as there are today with differing handguns people have the option of trying something different as opposed to mastering what appears to be difficult with a particular model.
 
The only J frame that I currently own is a 4" model 63 which I shoot decently, it's closer to a mid frame sized revolver.

I used to own a 340PD which was great to carry but a bear to shoot, even with standard pressure 38's. I was also one of the few foolish people to shoot an occasional 357 through it.

I currently own and carry a great deal a Beretta Pico 380. It has a very revolver like trigger and weighs about the same as the 340.

It's not as powerful but, for me at least, it is far more controllable and has much less felt recoil than the 340. At a practice session I am able to go through 100-150 rounds before I get tired out. I was lucky to get though several cylinders of the 340 before I would give up. (Having the 63 allowed me to get some similar practice in)

The extra practice possible with the Pico itself is a big positive.

That being said, I wouldn't mind getting another J frame, an LCR, or even a Taurus 856 some day. (Those new 3" 856 Defenders are nice!)
I gave my 340PD to a friend. It was not heavy enough to be an anchor and since Arthur came to live in my thumb joint, the 340 was a pith.
 
Hangingrock -
Thank you for sharing that experience , and thank you for your service , whichever particular service that was.

As to my retiring a particular pistol and moving on to another , I am not in the position of having to qualify with a specifically assigned firearm as you were. There are , as you stated , many choices available to us today. Given my history and experience I believe that it is practical for me to select and train with a piece of equipment that maximizes my chances of achieving my goal , and I became convinced that the PPS was not the right choice. I have gone over my reasoning for that conclusion in detail earlier ; no point in rehashing that now. In short , I am confident that I made a good decision in making a change ; though it does remain to be seen my next selection will work out for me. In the meantime , I have - through no small amount of effort - achieved proficiency with the J frame , and I will continue to rely on it as my carry until I can match those results with the auto loader.

I am sorry to say that I have no experience with the 1911. A Vietnam Veteran friend of mine , a close shooting friend , made Expert with the 1911 as you did. We shoot High Powers together , and he has stated that the ergonomics are somewhat similar. I do just fine with a High Power - points very easily , again as previously stated. I need to ask him to bring a 1911 on our next range trip - I think I would take to it pretty well. Not that I delude myself that I could have qualified as you 2 vets did ... I know a higher level of aptitude and skill when I see it. (and I see it each time my buddy and I shoot together...)

Thanks again for your service , and for your input here.
 
I find myself shooting a J frame better than my glocks often at the range. It is very discouraging that I cant shoot a 4" gun as well as a snub. I find my groups tighter and more on target with the snub. I find when I shoot my 43 I shoot low left. I think its due to the fact I shoot my J frame more. I know my J frame is supposed to be harder to shoot. In reality I probably have more rounds and I probably concentrate more. I have considered not shooting my J frames for a while and only shooting my 43 as a pocket gun and then larger semis for fun
 
I feel your pain , so to speak. My son has a couple of Glocks - slab sided to the extreme . He shoots them well but I stink up the joint with one in my hand. When we both shoot J frames I have him cold.
 
Several years ago, my wife, another married couple and myself were on a trip, we pulled into a park outside of Mariposa, Ca. make some sandwiches and eat lunch. The park was under construction and there was no one there besides us. I had driven about 100 yards down a gravel road, off of the paved parking lot in order to be near some picnic tables. While we were eating, a beat up old Toyota with 4 scruffy looking young men pulled into the parking lot. After a minute or two they drove down the gravel lane and stopped just the other side of our SUV and trailer and sat in their car talking and looking at us. I went down to my trailer to retrieve my handgun but the trailer was locked and my wife couldn't remember where she'd put the keys. I went back up to the table, empty handed but kept my hands where they couldn't see them. They soon drove off, my thinking is that they thought I'd gotten a gun. An hour later as we were driving, I found myself right behind them on the highway, the driver saw me in his rear view mirror and his eyes got big and wide, he quickly pulled over and stopped to let us drive away.
My point in re-telling this story is that in this case, theoretically there could have been a defensive shooting with myself against 4 assailants of at least 25 yards.
 
I have long been an advocate of a J frame revolver as a carry gun.

... At about 1 shot per second , unsupported , my hit rate with the pistol was about 65% , with the S&W m.60 J frame (da) 90% .

... Given my long term experience with revolvers vs semi-auto pistols I have to wonder if I will ever achieve the success rate I have with the J frame revolver. I feel as though I can point and shoot with the revolver , but I need to visually access the front sight with the pistol. I think it's the barrel vs square section slide factor as previously mentioned. I really want to reap the benefits of higher round count (8+1) and light weight of the Walther. ...

Commentary and advice is welcome.

Well, I'd opine that you're on the "best side" of the learning curve, so to speak, meaning you've already done well regarding what's usually the hardest part for many folks ... which is learning to shoot a DA/DAO revolver well. ;)

It's often opined by experienced firearms instructors that it's easier to make a pistol shooter out of a revolver shooter, than the other way 'round. BTDT.

Question, though. Are you shooting the M60 in DA or SA when you get your accurate hits? If you're shooting DA, cool. Great, even. If you're shooting in SA? Well, if you're only using SA, with its lighter and shorter trigger press, you haven't really mastered the little J-frame to the extent possible.

I'm guessing there was a learning curve involved when you were first learning to shoot the J-frame. It's not surprising you'd encounter the same thing changing over to a subcompact plastic pistol with a completely different grip frame, trigger mechanism and visual "cue" (the sights being on a blocky slide).

The change in the grip profile and trigger press is going to take a little effort, just like when you were first learning the J-frame. If you're a RH shooter and getting Low/Left hits with the PPS, that's pretty normal. You're going to have to become "friendlier" with the grip, trigger reach and trigger press elements ... and stop anticipating the the trigger break and subsequent recoil/cycling (which is different that that of the snub revolver).

The "conclusion" of the whole process of your sustaining your grip firmness, and completion of your trigger finger's "press" (not "clench"), is going to feel different than that of your J-frame. Realize it. Accept it. Deal with it. Drive on. ;) It's just another familiarization experience.

If you were one of the guys/gals I worked with on our range over the years, I'd start by reviewing the differences that may be required in the grip and trigger press break/conclusion ... and we'd step up to shooting at no more than 4yds, focusing on getting consistency in POA/POI, until you (and I) were satisfied and comfortable. Then, I move you back to 5-7yds (max) ... and do it all again. We'd not have you shoot at 10-15yds until your consistent accuracy at 4-7yds was boring you (and me) to tears. ;)

Now, some folks seem to need to make a few changes to their grip and trigger techniques. Others are delighted to find they really only need a single change, or maybe 2 subtle adjustments to their technique. (It's easier for an observed/instructor to see these things while watching you shoot. Not watching your target, necessarily, but watching you when the loud noises are happening. Hands, forearms, shoulders and hips/feet.

I also agree that just burning powder and hoping things change at some arbitrary round count can be a waste of time (and money). If you practice bad habits (even unconsciously), you're likely only to get "better" at doing those bad habits. The "1 step forward & 2 steps back" practice method isn't helpful. You need to specifically identify the things causing you to not shoot as well as you desire with your new gun, and actually work to properly correct those things.

At some point you could realize that you're really able to shoot the PPS not only as well as your J-frame, but even better (no more long DAO 12-15lb trigger pull).

Just my thoughts. Good luck. :)
 
Fastbolt ,
As an experienced instructor , your input is insightful a welcome. You asked about my mode of shooting my m. 60 - the answer is da.
As to my becoming proficient with the PPS - that will not happen as I sold it and put the proceeds towards a P99. If you go back through this thread I wrote at length about my reasons for making the decision tho change models.
I expect to begin training with the da/sa striker P99 next week and plan eo consult an instructor. I will post back on the results.

Thank you , 'Ski
 
If the p99 doesn't work out, you might try either a Ruger SR9/SR9c or a Kahr their triggers are more of a DA revolver feel. It was an easier transition for me, it took more work to get the more 2 stage like triggers like my PPS down.
 
Thank you . I have also considered the Beretta Px4 , another sa/da that has a faceted/ non flat-top slide.
High hopes for the P99. We'll see , and soon.
 
You know , the High Power would suit my purposes perfectly if it weren't for the condition 1 situation... (some will disagree with the following) the HP would require me to carry either be dependent on the safety or carry half cock. I am not comfortable with option 1 because the safety does not seem "positive" enough for me , plus I prefer to not have to deal with any safety - I want to draw and deal with trigger only. Hence my quest for the P99 which has sa/da function. I considered carrying the HP in half-cock , but with that particular gun 1/2 cock is actually about 1/5 cock , and the force necessary to bring that hammer over the top is formidable. One slip and it's no go ; not comfortable with that either.

Too bad because the High Power points effortlessly for me ; my results with it equal that with any of my revolvers.

If you like a Browning Hi-Power, but aren't sold on Condition One carry, another one to look at would be the CZ75 family. DA/SA, and the looks and ergos owe a great deal to the Hi-Power.
 
CZ 75 ...
My shooting buddy , mentioned in post #62 and previous , has been nudging me in that direction too. Swears by that design.

The good news is : I got into the area of striker fired and/or polymer by way of an impulse trade , I was moving an item I no longer had use for- actually wanted to sell not trade. The PPS showed me some interesting features and kindled a new area of interest , which is now being narrowed down to a couple of specific options.

This is an educational , rewarding process.
 
CZ 75 ...
My shooting buddy , mentioned in post #62 and previous , has been nudging me in that direction too. Swears by that design.

The good news is : I got into the area of striker fired and/or polymer by way of an impulse trade , I was moving an item I no longer had use for- actually wanted to sell not trade. The PPS showed me some interesting features and kindled a new area of interest , which is now being narrowed down to a couple of specific options.

This is an educational , rewarding process.
Yep you're just a little ways back on the trail. I was pretty die hard SA auto DA revolver guy. But it's pretty hard not to feel the gravitational pull of a relatively light weight potentially higher capacity poly striker gun.
I love my 2.5" nickel model 19 it's flat sexy and shoots lights out but my XDm 3.8 compact 40 S&W is slightly lighter, nearly duplicates the ballistics and has twice the capacity.
 
If any range within an hour drive had a P99 I would have rented it. No dice. I had a local range order one for me ; by this time next week I'll know if my thought process was valid , or if it was wishful thinking.

From your description of the type of triggers you shoot well and the ergonomics you prefer, I would bet money that you will really like the P99.
 
I hate to keep bringing up other guns when you're still waiting to try a p99. But another lesser known gem is the Grand Power line. I have a STI GP6c from when they were the importer. It's typical weight for a poly 9mm and ergos are a lot like a CZ but the trigger is the absolute best SA trigger on a SA/DA gun.
 
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