Jeff Cooper's Ideal Pistol

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Hard Ball

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After examining and shooting one of the first CZ75 9mm pistols to reach the US from Canada Jeff Cooper said it was an outstanding pistol offering many advanced features. He said it would be the finest automatic pistol in the world IF one change were made. Of course you know what that was, chamber it for .45ACP!

CZ studied this for a long time and finally produced an enlarged and enhanced CZ75, the CZ97B .45ACP. I got one shortly after they became available here in 2000, Gooper was right. It is a superb pistol in every respect and yes, it is better than a 1911!
 
Superb!

He said it would be the finest automatic pistol in the world IF one change were made.

Yep...and IF a bullfrog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt at the end of a jump.:D

Cooper said that all the 1911 needs is sights you can see...a trigger you can use...and dehorning.

Welcome to The High Road, Hard Ball. Kick off yer shoes and set a spell.
Coffee?
 
It is a superb pistol in every respect and yes, it is better than a 1911!
Click to expand...

I respectfully submit to you that a CZ-97 lacks several requirements that a 1911 has; namely, a grip sized for a human hand (and not an ape's), a useable trigger in all modes of fire, and a safety that is in the proper location. (not a quarter inch ahead of the proper location), and is therefore not better than a 1911.
 
Burgers anyone?
Smiley%20grillingburgers.gif
:D
 
With thin grips, the 97B has a much better feel... Much like a 1911 with normal grips. Actually with stock woodies, and the Pearce modular rubber finger grooves under them, that might be actually bigger than the 97B's.
 
My 1911 wears thin grips, and even the thick gripped 1911s are smaller than my dad's CZ40, which has to be thinner than the 97.

none of the CZ's fit me, because they're so thick.
 
If Jeff Cooper, or John Moses Browning, said it .... it must be true.

Of course, I'm inclined to believe that Browning has a priopary interest, so if it's a toss-up I'll go with Col. Cooper.

Bottom line: I've been shooting 1911's for upteen years, and I've never found one (even the most expensive) which I have felt 'pointed' right. I've never used a CZ in a situation which tested the ergonomics ("pointabiliby") of the CZ, so I'm willing to be convinced.

Ultimately, I believe it depends on the relationship between the gun and its sights. You can purchase a lot of diffferent sights (cf: C-more vs OK sight, vs iron sights). The difference in usability depends on what sights you choose for your particular application.
jB)
 
I'am sure they are fine guns, I'm all for folks having pride of ownership.
Only CZ's I've fired were rifles in .22lr, 375H&H, and '06.

I'm kinda slow and hesitant to change. Grew up with 1911's and K frame Smith's. Shot my first 1911 at age 6 ...err some 43 yrs ago...still learning and enjoying the platform. Ya'll go ahead on...I'll catch up one of these days- maybe. :)
 
Well, as the man said, "I have this to say about that..." :p

I've been shooting 1911s since I've been shooting... anything. First gun I ever shot, first gun I ever bought... I'm one of those folks that think that they are pretty close to the be all, end all of serious handguns. Having said that, in my hand, the standard sized CZ is more comfortable... Not quite as trim, but still more ergonomic. I'd hate to think that I could never own another 1911, but some unbelievable force prevented me from any more 1911s, I could live reasonably happily with only CZs for the rest of my life.

The CZ97 is a fine piece. To me, it seems a bit larger than it really needs to be. EAA gets by with a noticably smaller 45 frame gun so, while the CZ97 is probably the best finished CZ handgun, I'm still not exactly sure why it's quite so large.

I'm still holding out for a PCR or P-01 in 45GAP. ;)
 
NEW FANGLED COLT BROWNING AUTOLOADER

I'm still getting used to the platform, myself, also...

attachment.php
:evil:
 
Actually Jeff Cooper made what he considered the "ultimate"...
He collaberated(sp?) on the Bren Ten. 10MM....
 
Well, the 1911 & CZ are my two favorite types of pistols. In fact, they're the only two platforms I have at the moment and I don't see myself changing to anything else in the future. The CZ's are more ergonomic in my hand then the 1911, but I shoot my 1911's more accurately, because of the superb trigger, while the reliability of my 3 CZ's have been fantastic.

Although I've held a CZ97 and liked it, I don't own one because I see no reason for having a CZ in .45ACP when I have my 1911's.

I guess I should say that I've been thinking about a Hi-Power, maybe one of these days if I find one at a great price....

:)
 
Thousands, maybe millions conceal or carry a 1911 every day.

Few carry the 97B due to it's size.

The 97B is more accurate than a stock Gov model, but not by much.

10 rounds of .45 is very nice. but if the gun is too big and heavy..
really does you no good sitting in the safe.

The fit and finsh of a 97B (glossy blue) is truly outstanding.
Well worth the extra money they ask for it over the 75B.

Nowdays, with 97Bs running a little over $500.00 and Kimbers or others
in $800-1,000 the CZ is a better buy for some folks.

A RAMI in .45 GAP will get some attention of 1911 fans. The gun is
based on the Z-40/CZ40B that mimics the 1911 frame.

My RAMI feels and points like a chopped 1911 in my hands.

150050.bmp
 
Please no more talk about .45 GAP. I found a few empties at the range on Friday. It's just a matter of time before one ends up sneaking into my reloading press and fouling up the process like those darned Winclean abominations.

As far as Col. Coopers "Ideal Pistol" goes:

With all do respect, and IMHO that's a considerable amount, I'm sure that what the good colonel and I find to be the "ideal pistol" will differ as much as Col. Cooper and I differ from each other. I do, however, favor the 1911 pattern.
 
When the CZ 97 came out, Cooper said that he had been consulting with CZ about a .45 caliber pistol they were considering for production but that the 97 was NOT it.

Cooper's original concept of the 10mm was about like a 10mm FBI or hot .40, not the 10mm Norma D&D.
 
"The 97B is more accurate than a stock Gov model, but not by much."

You must be talking about a stock Ed Brown Government Model... because I have found the 97B to be more than shockingly accurate.

I would rather it be built on the smaller Witness style .45 frame, and also in a shorter length for CCW.

Put me down for a blued "Officer's 97" in Single Action Only, thanks.
 
Witness 45ACP?

I would rather it be built on the smaller Witness style .45 frame, and also in a shorter length for CCW.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with the EAA Witness 45? I've seen them at gun shows for ~$360 in "wonder finish" full size, steel frame. I almost got one but decided to wait once I saw the front sight had been plated as well -- dumb! I know they make a "compact" model because I've also seen cut down mags for the smaller guns.


I like the 97B (on paper, never shot one), but I like the 75B I have in .40 S&W so much that the EAA "clone" in 45 is awfully tempting and ~$120 cheaper than the 97B is around here.

I don't think much of "compact" pistols until they get to about the size of my Kimber Ultra Carry or Para 10.

--wally.
 
"Actually Jeff Cooper made what he considered the "ultimate"...
He collaberated(sp?) on the Bren Ten. 10MM...."

Unfortuneatly-X-< the Bren Ten and the Bren 45 were interesting concepte, but they were poorly executed. The 10mms experienced slide rail failure after only a limited amount of firing. The Bren 45s lasted longer, but eventually failed in the same way.
 
cooper recently commented that 10mm is a flawed concept. paraphrasing: it's all about extending the range of pistols to go where pistols shouldn't go. if you need 10mm range you need to get to cover and a bigger gun.

however if your talking about good pistol cartridges that double as carbine or SMG cartridges then 10mm could have a niche there. aside from sports like bowling pins and handgun hunting.

"The question as to whether the 10-millimeter (40-caliber) pistol cartridge, in any of its forms, is a satisfactory fight-stopper remains open. I have no doubt that the original Ten, as made up and loaded for the Bren Ten, had all the necessary attributes, firing as it did a 40-caliber, 200-grain, flat-point projectile at upwards of 1,200 feet per second. The "Attenuated Tens," as now loaded and sold, are way short of this, but I suspect that they are still quite a bit ahead of the Parabellum cartridge. Time will tell."
-cooper, vol.4 no.7 1996

i recall other remarks that would indicate he does respect .40s&w.
 
Unfortuneatly-X-< the Bren Ten and the Bren 45 were interesting concepte, but they were poorly executed. The 10mms experienced slide rail failure after only a limited amount of firing. The Bren 45s lasted longer, but eventually failed in the same way.
Click to expand...

Hadn't heard this particular myth before. It's always interesting how these stories tend to take on a life of their own after a few years.
 
When the CZ 97 came out, Cooper said that he had been consulting with CZ about a .45 caliber pistol they were considering for production but that the 97 was NOT it.
Click to expand...
As I understand it, the pistol to which he was referring was the CZ40B (I believe Colt called it the Z-40). It had/has a 1911-style grip angle, but had little2nothing else in common with the 1911 pattern and wound up being solely chambered in 40S&W.
 
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