Joint Agency Ballistics Test for Defensive Handgun Ammo

[Commo]

A thread in this forum asks what are the latest developments in defensive 9mm ammunition, and I thought I'd start a thread on a recent amazing study of not only 9mm but other calibers used by LE agencies.

(Mods, I couldn't find any reference to this study through search on THR.)

The study '2016/17 Joint Agency Ballistics Test for Defensive Handgun Ammunition' can be read/downloaded at the web site of the authors/coordinators of the test, Viper Weapons Training, at
https://viperweapons.us/wound-ballistics-1

It is a 51-page 'sanitized' version of the results made available to LE. By 'sanitized' they mean that all names of individuals and agencies have been taken out of the 'unclassified' version. It is, apparently, otherwise the same information made available to LE.

Using both gel and animal media they study the performance of Hollow Point, Full Metal Jacket, Solid Copper and Frangible rounds in 9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, 10mm, 45 ACP and 5.7mm. They shoot into the media through denim and/or plywood. They compare this study to the results in six other such tests.

They state: "The test was conducted only to produce and record raw data and describe rounds in regards to four wound ballistics characteristics."

If you're interested in this stuff at all it is definitely worth the time to download and study. Those who are skeptical of gel media results will be interested in the animal media portions of the study, wherein they concluded that the closest analog to human tissue would be beef briskets and punctured a lot of them in the name of ballistics science.

I would love to get some discussion started based around your reactions to the Test! But I'd ask you to read the whole thing before commenting...

Commo

 

[Jinx0760]

I downloaded the report and read it all. The results and data in the report has me re-thinking my CC choice?

 

[JR24]

Certainly a fascinating read and the only part "new" to me was the the conclusion that the fast screwdriver rounds did perform well in the animal medium, yet significantly less than gel. I'm not terribly surprised as the very non scientific results from Paul Harrell's meat test seemed to show similar evidence, if only brief.

Call me a cynic but the lack of identification as to who exactly did the study does somewhat make me skeptical about the authenticity, but it was certainly worth the read.

The small fast coppers may, indeed, be the way to go with 9mm but cost and potential accuracy issues still keep me sticking with my 147 gr JHP for the time being.

 

[Monac]

What is a screwdriver round? I am not up to date on pistol bullet designs. Thanks!

 

[JR24]

They are fluted solid, non expanding copper or similar rounds that look a lot like a Phillip's head screwdriver.

Loaded light (65 to 90 grain, in 9mm) and shot really fast. Theory is the spinning fluted bullet creates torsion that will increase the permanent wound channel more than FMJ.

This report seems to agree with the theory in beef brisket test medium, anyway.

 

[Commo]

Easiest way to see these ‘screwdriver’ rounds is check out Underwood ammo’s XD rounds using Lehigh Defense solid copper bullets.

Commo

 

[Commo]

...

Call me a cynic but the lack of identification as to who exactly did the study does somewhat make me skeptical about the authenticity, but it was certainly worth the read.

...

Understood..perhaps an LE member with access to the whole report can confirm that only names have been redacted? Viper mentions in passing somewhere on its website (but now I can’t find it) that a new test of 9mm has been done...sure would like to see any updates..

Commo

 

[Monac]

Thanks, JR24 and Commo! I have never heard of this type of bullet before. Capitalism never sleeps! I am glad to know it has been subjected to such scientific testing as is available now, or I would have thought it was a gimmick.

 

[Commo]

... The results and data in the report has me re-thinking my CC choice?

Me too, need to order some copper bullets from Lehigh to load up, and will study speed recommendations for the 124 gr JHPs I load, as the study indicates that faster is not necessarily better...

Commo

 

[cheygriz]

I guess I'm cynical, but it seems to me that new "wonder guns" and/or "wonder ammo" come out every time agencies have money left over in the budget, or the FBI has something to hide.

 

[JR24]

Me too, need to order some copper bullets from Lehigh to load up, and will study speed recommendations for the 124 gr JHPs I load, as the study indicates that faster is not necessarily better...

Commo

Problem is those bullets alone cost more than my carry ammo. I cant fathom how I could practice appropriately with ammo so expensive, especially since the light bullets will almost certainly shoot differently standard practice loads.

Conversely I can load FMJ that nearly perfectly mimic my carry load for about $.13-.15

 

[cheygriz]

I have my own "test" of ammo.

Does it have "street cred" with patrol cops? The ammo I carry now has a lot of street cred.

 

[Iggy]

Very interesting study. Makes me feel good about my 10mms and 45s.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Deleted after coming to my senses. This is not legit, it's advertising.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I am really hoping the resurgence of the 10mm Auto will lead to better bullet selection. The 10mm does as well as can be expected of it considering it is hampered by bullets designed for the .40 S&W, which tend to fragment or over-expand and curl back over their shanks. If we could get manufactures to offer full power 10mm Auto with bullets designed for the 10mm Auto, it could be so much more impressive.

Lots of good data here. I am bullet geek and eat this stuff up. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Commo]

I cant fathom how I could practice appropriately with ammo so expensive, especially since the light bullets will almost certainly shoot differently standard practice loads

Same boat here...though I will probably buy a box of 50 bullets in both 9mm and 10mm and work up loads that chrono close to the Underwood offerings and chalk it up to R&D...

Commo

 

[JR24]

Same boat here...though I will probably buy a box of 50 bullets in both 9mm and 10mm and work up loads that chrono close to the Underwood offerings and chalk it up to R&D...

Commo

I'm debating looking into it myself, just for something new to work on over the winter.

 

[Commo]

It's making me more curious about Lehigh bullets, particularly for the 10mm.

In the report's summary of Solid Copper Projectiles they say of the Lehigh XD bullet: "This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data."

It will be interesting to see if there's a move to use of the copper non-expanding bullet by LE anytime soon.

The cost is so prohibitive but I wonder if there's an economy of scale or a way to make the rounds more cheaply..this would be about the only way I can imagine that the copper will build what cheygriz cites as the all-important 'street cred.'

Commo

 

[JR24]

In the report's summary of Solid Copper Projectiles they say of the Lehigh XD bullet: "This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data."

It will be interesting to see if there's a move to use of the copper non-expanding bullet by LE anytime soon.

The cost is so prohibitive but I wonder if there's an economy of scale or a way to make the rounds more cheaply..this would be about the only way I can imagine that the copper will build what cheygriz cites as the all-important 'street cred.'

Commo

Indeed, if we see that push it will both fully vet the design with "real world" data and likely drive prices down to (hopefully) reasonable levels.

Who knows, it might just be the direction ammo goes from here.

Or it might not.

 

[Commo]

I'm debating looking into it myself, just for something new to work on over the winter.

Yep, it's getting cold here in Michigan...I'm gearing up in my basement bullet works to churn out some ammo...are you in the middle of the (Michigan) mitt?

Commo

 

[Commo]

Who knows, it might just be the direction ammo goes from here.

With a strong push by many influences to limit lead in shooting applications the copper effort is going to get a strong push that doesn't really hinge on the ballistics we're seeing...for better or worse we may be pushed to copper to get the lead out..

Commo

 

[Commo]

Viper mentions in passing somewhere on its website (but now I can’t find it) that a new test of 9mm has been done...sure would like to see any updates..

Found it: this is actually a statement on the last page of the test itself which states: "A 2019 test is being scheduled to include newer rounds."

I'd like to be a fly on that particular wall when the testing takes place...if they need a volunteer photog/video guy (retired newspaper photojournalist) then I'm available!

Commo

 

[JR24]

Yep, it's getting cold here in Michigan...I'm gearing up in my basement bullet works to churn out some ammo...are you in the middle of the (Michigan) mitt?

Commo

Nope, the middle of your western neighbor, just across that little lake.

Getting cold here too.

 

[Commo]

Nope, the middle of your western neighbor, just across that little lake.

Oh, then meet in Chicago for some comparative shooting...oh...wait...hahahaha

Commo

 

[labnoti]

"The 2016/17 Joint Agency Ballistic Test For Defensive Handgun Ammunition was conducted by several Federal, State and Local government agencies as well as security teams, contractors and ballistics experts. It is being hosted by a private training company and includes testers and experts from these multiple agencies. The training company ensured continuity, consistency and accuracy of all tests and generated the final report for all involved."

This is complete nonsense. When Federal State and Local governments spend taxpayer money, they're accountable for it and there is no legitimate reason for such testing to be kept secret or classified. If the report was funded by public money, it would be public knowledge who funded it. Note that the proposition here is not that the test results and report are classified, but the names of the agencies that commissioned it. Nonsense!

This is nothing but a ruse to imply credibility to the report that doesn't exist.

The content of the report is also amateurish:

"The average human male is 10" thick. Most human tissue is elastic. Organs, skin, muscle, intestines and blood vessels are capable of substantial stretching with minimal damage. Medical and military studies have shown that the outward velocity of tissue caused by the temporary stretch cavity is between 8-15% of the velocity of the projectile at the depth the stretch is created. Furthermore in these studies it was shown that human muscular tissue (other than brain or liver tissue) can stretch much faster than that velocity. Also, the distance created by the stretch cavity does not exceed the capability of the muscular tissue to stretch without tearing. At greater than around 2,000 fps it was tested, seen and measured that our test tissue did show signs of over-stretching and damage. This was noted on the rounds that were extremely high speed at impact (>2,000 fps). It was difficult to measure but is a contributing factor to overall wounding."


All of those conclusions without citing a single source. This report reads less authoritatively than a lot of anonymous forum posts.