Joint Agency Ballistics Test for Defensive Handgun Ammo

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Dr. Pblanc, based upon your academic training and surgical experience, I would be interested to know the caliber and round that you carry.

Well, in answer to your question, when it comes to handguns, I think it is clear that whatever you can shoot most accurately is going to be most effective. I personally would not carry a pistol chambered in .380 Auto, 22 LR, .25, or .32 although any of those could potentially be effective with excellent shot placement. For a small concealed carry pistol I favor 9 mm Luger because of magazine capacity considerations and the fact that the recoil of stouter calibers can be somewhat more difficult to control in lightweight pistols with a small frame and reduced grip size. I prefer .40 S&W in medium sized pistols, especially those with all-metal frames that are a bit heavier. And I prefer .45 ACP in full-size pistols such as those that might be used for home defense, where magazine capacity limitations are not as severe. I have carried both a SIG Sauer P250 subcompact DAO in 9 mm and an M&P Shield in 9 mm inside the waistband. For OWB I tend to prefer something a bit larger like my SIG P229 in .40 S&W, but I have also carried a Glock 19 and compact SIG P320 in 9 mm if I wanted something a bit sleeker than a P229 that still had excellent capacity. For home self-defense I have a full-size SIG P320 in .45 ACP as a bedroom handgun.

Here is a somewhat rambling account of an individual who works in a Medical Examiner's office who has personally witnessed many autopsies carried out on victims of fatal gunshot wounds. Note that this was posted years ago, when 9 mm JHP ammunition performed less well than it does today:

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

Now, I do not agree with everything this individual says, but there are several points on which his experience mirrors closely what I have seen. Realize that the experience of an emergency room physician, a trauma physician, or a trauma/general/vascular surgeon is not going to be the same as someone whose experience is limited to doing autopsies on fatal gunshot victims. Surgeons don't operate on dead people, and surgeons and ER providers typically do not observe autopsies on individuals who arrive DOA. On the other hand, a person doing autopsies in an ME's office will probably observe a lot fewer survivable gunshot wounds.

But here are some points upon which I agree with "deadmeat2":

The most devastating single shot wounds that I have seen resulting from close range encounters have resulted from 12 gauge shotguns, and that includes .223/5.56x45 and 7.62x39 high velocity rifle wounds. Based on my experience, I do not believe any other firearm that is commonly recommended for home self-defense is as likely to put an attacker down right now with a single, center mass hit as a 12 gauge shotgun will do. The high velocity rifle wounds I have seen have only been the result of FMJ ammunition. With these, the amount of tissue damage seems to vary dramatically depending on whether or not the projectile tumbled or fragmented within the body. I have seen a few high velocity rifle wounds to the abdomen which seemed to produce "remote" injuries like cracks in the capsule of the liver or spleen, or rupture of a loop or two of distended small bowel in which the secondary injuries appeared not to correspond to the direct path of the projectile. But I think this type of injury pattern is much less likely than some have claimed in the press and elsewhere, and in the particular instances I have witnessed none of the remote injuries would have been likely to result in immediate or early incapacitation.

As for handgun GSWs, it so happens that the most impressive results I have seen resulted from 357 Magnum revolver wounds. Back in the 1970s when I was in the trauma unit at Cook County Hospital, the majority of Chicago cops were still carrying revolvers, usually with 4" barrels loaded with 357 Magnum, and they brought the majority of police shootings to CCH. I would certainly consider 357 Magnum to be a potent self-defense round, but in truth I do not shoot it as well as I would like, and I prefer modern auto-loading pistols to revolvers.

Like deadmeat2, if I had to choose a handgun caliber for single hit effectiveness given identical shot placement, I tend to favor projectiles of higher momentum given sufficient penetration. For a given caliber, the "heavy for weight" projectiles tend to produce the highest momentum, but not always. I think projectiles that provide somewhere around 25 lb-ft/sec plus or minus 3-4 lb-ft/sec, are more likely to shatter bones or plow through them, and less likely to be deviated off course by other dense structures or intervening barriers than those with lesser momentum. Handgun calibers that commonly produce projectile momentum in this range include .40 S&W, 357 SIG, 357 Magnum, .45 ACP, and .44 Special. 38 Special standard pressure and 9 mm Luger typically fall a bit short, although with 9 mm the 147 grain projectiles can often at least exceed 20 lb-ft/sec, and some +P loads can. Calibers like 25 ACP, 32 ACP, and 380 Auto fall way short. Of course, there are pistol and revolver calibers that provide projectile momentum greater than 30 lb-ft/sec including 10 mm Auto, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt, but with these over-penetration and reduced shootability concerns become an issue for some.

Here is an extract from that long, rambling discourse by deadmeat2 that also mirrors my experience:

"I can tell you that when one of the BGs comes in with multiple gunshot wounds it can be extremely difficult to determine the paths of each. We use steel probes to try to follow the path of each bullet in an attempt to determine the angle and trajectory of the wounds, and many times it's almost impossible. Unlike ballistic gelatin, the body is not translucent so the course of the bullet can't be seen. Also, unlike ballistic gelatin, which stays open allowing the damage to be analyzed, human tissue closes back up. Many times it comes down to making small scalpel slices along the wound path and trying to follow it that way. And from this I can safely say that I've never seen anything that approximates ballistic gelatin. Yes, there is damage along the course of the bullet, but usually it's due to the bullet itself, which is ripping tissue along the way and fragments of the jacket or core that are spalling off and creating their own trajectories incidental to the main path of the bullet. As I've said several time in other posts, I just don't believe that ballistic gelatin is a realistic representation of what actually happens, and I'm afraid that folks are placing their faith in a bullet that looks impressive in ballistic gelatin although the results are markedly different in the human body."

At least when it comes to handgun terminal ballistic effectiveness I don't think many people would disagree that the following factors are most important:

1. Shot placement (accuracy). 2. Adequate penetration. 3. Projectile expanded diameter (including reliability of expansion, for JHP ammunition). Those three factors are usually going to determine the likelihood that one hits a critical structure with a single shot.

After that, a lot of other considerations come into play. I do believe that projectile momentum is a factor but so too are things like magazine capacity and the ease with which the shooter can obtain accurate and rapid followup shots. And these will depend on the size and nature of the handgun used and the shooter's individual proficiency with the particular cartridge in that firearm.
 
Right, but you have to acknowledge the limitations of ballistics gelatin as well.

Ballistics gelatin is used for a couple of reasons; it approximates the behavior of soft tissue with high velocity crush damage, and it provides a homogeneous substance that can be calibrated to provide scientifically valid and repeatable results. But it is only an approximation of the damage and only then within certain criteria. We know that ballistics gel provides a poor representation of damage inflicted by cutting instruments, for example. While used often for this purpose, anyone who has cut real meat knows the results obtained in testing on gel for things like knife testing, tomahawk throwing, and archery is wildly inaccurate. Watch Colt Steel videos where they cut two pig carcasses in half with a single swing and then use the same sword on a gel torso only to have it go six inches and stop. Or see an bow and arrow combination with a recorded history of passing through 200 pound wild pigs make it less than 10 inches into a block of ballistics gel. We also know that human beings are not homogeneous. Testing shows that the skin alone can account for up to 3 inches of penetration in ballistics gel. Meanwhile, air filled lungs offer almost no resistance. I've seen a lot of gel tests with the 200 gr XTP @ 1250 fps from a 10mm Auto. I know what that bullet can do in gel, what it does in water jugs, and what it does in tissue. I've seen it break the onside shoulder of a large doe, penetrate diagonally through the chest, and exit just behind the last rib on the offside--a distance of over two and a half feet, or nearly double the standard gel penetration depth of 18 inches. Gel will show cavitation damage in handguns when none is present in real tissue. Gel will also sonoluminescence when I have never seen evidence of this in tissue.
It is exactly the complexity of living tissue that makes its results not scientifically valid; all bodies are different so results can't be duplicated because scientific method demands there be only one control. When we use real flesh or other simulated "meat targets," we void our results because the target is complicated enough we can't be sure differences in our results were due to variances in the ammunition being tested or in the target. Using a homogeneous substance that we can calibrate gives us a test medium that is consistent enough to allow us confidence that any difference in our results comes from differences in the control, the ammunition being tested.

Well aware of what calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin can, and cannot, do. Tissue surrogates, like calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin and water, provide a standardized medium against which to compare the behavior of different bullets/designs. Bullets fired against the IWBA 4LD test (which is a mechanical failure test, no one wears that much denim) look like bullets recovered from human bodies. Regardless of the opinions expressed here, there is a reason that the two mediums are used both in R&D and in LE evaluations; they work well and produce valid, repeatable test results that correlate well against actual performance in human bodies. The research is there, it is extensive and definitive and it proves that calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is a valid test medium. We agree.
 
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As I've said several time in other posts, I just don't believe that ballistic gelatin is a realistic representation of what actually happens, and I'm afraid that folks are placing their faith in a bullet that looks impressive in ballistic gelatin although the results are markedly different in the human body."

Folks here will hear this alot. It's due to a serious misunderstanding of what ballistic gelatin is, what it does and what to expect from it. In this quote the gentleman is dismayed that ballistic gelatin can't tell you what a bullet will actually do in a human body. "...the results are markedly different in the human body." He expected, somehow, that the gelatin tests would tell you what a bullet would do when it struck it's target, he is distraught that the gel tests and bullet in an actual human, act differently, surprised by it, and so is compelled to warn us of that being the case.

10% (and 20% that the military uses) ballistic gel simulates muscle tissue in human beings and allows for the development of bullets that can perform consistently to certain standards in that medium. It does this better than any other medium in the past or at present. That's it and that's alot.

It can't tell you what a bullet will do in a mammal's body. It's not supposed to so don't be irritated that it doesn't. Nothing can tell you that, especially with humans.

Every shot is it's own experience. Every bullet that strikes it's own experience. How it travels, the damage done, is unique to the person shot.

tipoc
 
As range master I’ve been to several gel demos from each maker (Winchester, Hornady, Speer, Remington, Federal). I’ve also been first on scene at lots of shootings from a wide variety of guns; handgun, shotgun and rifle from both civilian and officer; interviewed and witnessed trauma surgeons in action, attended autopsies and interviewed coroners, read and synopsized post-mortem reports on causes of death and assisted Prosecutor’s cases from on-scene walk through all the way to courtroom verdict in homicide trials. Do I know it all? Nope! But after 28 years and counting I have seen/done a bit involving the lethality of firearms and humans.

IMHO gel tests have to be seen in one light:

It is merely a repeatable and verifiable test medium that allows for side by side comparisons of bullet performance, within that medium, by reducing as much as possible the variable of the test medium itself, for consistency.

Since we can’t shoot people to determine the reality of how a load may truly perform, something needs to take its place. Gel was determined to be pretty close to average soft tissue density.

That’s all it is. No two steaks are alike, no two skeletal bones are alike, no two frozen turkeys are alike, no two goats are alike, no two cadavers are alike, etc. Gel can be made to be so similar block to block to block because it isn’t subject to the whims of genetics, health, etc. If the block doesn’t calibrate properly, then it isn’t used.

It doesn’t (and can’t) replicate varying tissue densities, it doesn’t replicate tissue elasticity, it doesn’t replicate a humans drug-influenced (or not) shock or pain response to trauma, it doesn’t replicate someone’s Pre-conceived notions of how people should respond when shot and it doesn’t allow for nervous system disruption or blood loss to determine the ultimate effectiveness of any given bullet. All it can do is offer a prediction of what may (should?) happen to the bullet when a person/animal is shot in an area of their body with similar characteristics to the gel.

When folks dissect down to minutiae the pros and cons of gel and gel test results they are missing the forest through the trees. It’s not the be-all end-all, it’s simply a way to compare side by side what physically happens to bullet X and bullet Y as closely as possible.

May I add; I truly hope that we all are never in the situation where we have to find out just how effective our chosen defensive load is.

Stay safe!
 
I have seen many instances in which a projectile either radically deviated or was contained upon encountering tissues of greater density other than bone.

This fits with what I saw back in Johannesburg when I was doing gunshot wound research. I have some cases published on LinkedIn: you may find Case 132 interesting.
 
This fits with what I saw back in Johannesburg when I was doing gunshot wound research. I have some cases published on LinkedIn: you may find Case 132 interesting.

That's true.It's also common, or at least not unusual. Did you expect it to be otherwise?
 
That's true.It'so common, or at least not unusual. Did you expect it to be otherwise?

Well in Case 132 no bone was involved and the projectile took a 90 degree angle at the liver. Before I saw that, I wouldn't have expected it at all.
This is about "radical deviations" not involving bone.
Lesser deviations are more common, such as bullets being influenced by tissue planes. I suspect those happen in the second half of a trajectory when the bullet is slowing down. It is one of those things that can't be proved very easily, though.

I have another case where an individual was struck on the cheek and the bullet ended up in the liver, but that one involved two bone strikes. The first was the mandible and the second was an upper rib.
 
There's A LOT of misinformation in this thread.

Every issue of the International Wound Ballistics Association's journal, Wound Ballistics Review, is available online at: https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

Suggested reading relevant to this thread is:
- The Wound Profile & The Human Body: Damage Pattern Correlation by Martin L. Fackler, MD., Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1 Number 4
- Wound Ballistics Misconceptions by
Duncan MacPherson, Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 2 Number 3

Index of all articles published in Wound Ballistics Review - https://web.archive.org/web/20140209092850/http://www.firearmstactical.com/wbr.htm
 
Well in Case 132 no bone was involved and the projectile took a 90 degree angle at the liver. Before I saw that, I wouldn't have expected it at all.
This is about "radical deviations" not involving bone.
Lesser deviations are more common, such as bullets being influenced by tissue planes. I suspect those happen in the second half of a trajectory when the bullet is slowing down. It is one of those things that can't be proved very easily, though.

I did not see case 132 so I can't comment on that in particular. But on the bullet "took a 90 degree angle at the liver" there can be a number of causes for that. The bullet could have been tumbling due to yaw. The bullet could have been deformed by hitting a barrier. The bullets energy could have been exhausted and it veered, etc.

Defensive handgun bullets, that have rated well in the FBI's protocol, have more than enough energy and momentum to penetrate any of the soft tissue in a human body and not be veering radically off course unless there is a particular reason for that. Some of which I mentioned above.

This is also discussed in the IWBA Wound Ballistic Review Vol. 1 #4 that was linked to above.
 
Defensive handgun bullets, that have rated well in the FBI's protocol, have more than enough energy and momentum to penetrate any of the soft tissue in a human body and not be veering radically off course unless there is a particular reason for that. Some of which I mentioned above.

That's the nucleus of the debate. I am broadly in agreement with what you said. It's obvious that something won't happen unless there's a reason for it. Those variables are many and varied and can't all be replicated by gel.
It's for those reasons that I have some misgivings about the Wolberg paper. The salient argument in this thread is a continuation of a discussion in the Penetration Question thread. If you read that thread you'll see why I specifically quoted pblanc's post and agreed with it. It was for the benefit of 481 mainly.
 
This stretch cavity only causes wounding in high velocity rounds greater than 2,000 feet per second (fps) and for all rounds that do not exceed that velocity inside of the target does not contribute at all to any wounding effects or incapacitation. The displaced tissue is not destroyed and in most cases is not even damaged. Most human tissue (other than brain and liver tissue) can be stretched as much as 6 times its normal size before overexpansion and tearing occurs.
Disappointing to see such an obvious error--and worse yet, it's stated immediately adjacent to an acknowledgement that it is a false statement.

Obviously if there is some tissue in the body (brain and liver are two that they state) that isn't flexible then it can't be true that rounds under 2,000 fps do "not contribute at all to any wounding effects or incapacitation". A temporary stretch cavity that impinges on the liver (which is the largest single organ in the abdomen and very vascular) would clearly result in wounding effects and potentially incapacitation.

If we take their assessment of muscle tissue stretch limits as accurate, then it would seem that below 2,000fps, temporary stretch is not a reliable wounding mechanism; the authors could have stated that and been perfectly accurate and likely would have made their point. But apparently that wasn't enough.

Furthermore, as nearly as I can tell, stretch limits/elasticity of the spleen, pancreas and kidneys are pretty similar to that of the liver which means that they could also be susceptible to wounding from temporary stretch.
Here is a somewhat rambling account of an individual who works in a Medical Examiner's office who has personally witnessed many autopsies carried out on victims of fatal gunshot wounds. Note that this was posted years ago, when 9 mm JHP ammunition performed less well than it does today:

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm
That account has a lot more problems than just being "somewhat rambling". People who like it, like it because it agrees with what they believe, not because it stands up to critical analysis.

Did you miss the part where he finally admitted that most of the autopsies he was involved with were of bodies that were badly decayed? Or the part where he finally stated that his assessment of terminal effect was based exclusively on penetration?
 
That's the nucleus of the debate. I am broadly in agreement with what you said. It's obvious that something won't happen unless there's a reason for it. Those variables are many and varied and can't all be replicated by gel.
It's for those reasons that I have some misgivings about the Wolberg paper. The salient argument in this thread is a continuation of a discussion in the Penetration Question thread. If you read that thread you'll see why I specifically quoted pblanc's post and agreed with it. It was for the benefit of 481 mainly.

I am sure that you are probably a fine x-ray tech, but really, I am already aware of what gelatin testing does, and does not, represent. There is a tremendous amount of research supporting 10% gelatin which is not limited to the Wolberg paper, you might want to familiarize yourself with the IWBA provided by Mr. Dodson as well as the work done by Dr. Martin Fackler if you've not done so. D. MacPherson and the late Dr. Martin Fackler, held correctly, that so long as the test medium possesses the same internal sonic velocity, bulk modulus and density as the tissues that they are being used to simulate that the resulting terminal ballistic performance (expansion, penetration depth) would also produce similar results in soft tissue—the source from which I refer to the average material properties being represented by 10% gelatin. See Chapter 5 of Bullet Penetration for the explanation of dynamic equivalence as it relates to tissue simulation. There's really nothing to argue here. The science, and the test medium, is valid.
 
"It's for those reasons that I have some misgivings about the Wolberg paper."

I must have missed that Wolberg paper. got a link?
 
Point of fact: There is no need to include bones in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin tests since the medium represents the average density of the human body....bones, sinew, tendons, ligaments, viscera included.

I'm not knocking the validity of gel tests, as it serves many purposes, but the quoted assertion is illogical. The average density of a living body is totally irrelevant as all tissues represented in that average would demonstrate difference penetration, deformation, and deflection characteristics. A thin mucus membrane and a thick bone may be part of that average, but they will have totally different interactions with and reactions to a projectile.

By using this average density logic I could shoot a block of wood, and assert that it would have similar penetration as shooting a piece of paper along with a 5" thick steel plate, but we don't need to shoot the paper or the steel, because the wood block represents the average density of the two. That would be nonsense of course, but numerically could be true depending on the wood type and thickness. But it wouldn't really tell us anything about the actual effect on the paper or steel.

Gel tests have their uses, and are repeatable which is very important, but we shouldn't lose sight of what they are and that they represent how a bullet MAY act in a living body.

It is not illogical at all. One need look no farther than the fact that the density of the human body (unless there is an overabundance of adipose tissue) is just slightly greater than that of water. If we exhale, reducing internal buoyant air spaces to a minimum, then the human body sinks in water having an average density of about 1.02 grams per cubic centimeter. You seem to have taken out of context that I think that 10% ordnance gelatin represents what a bullet would do in each particular type of tissue when I have not made that claim. That gelatin represents the average density of the entire human body is correct and goes to ordnance gelatin's ability to reproduce the pressure (force per unit area), similar to that which it would encounter in a human body, that drives both bullet expansion and deceleration during a bullet's penetration. Specifically, that relationship is computed by the Bernoulli Pressure equation, ½ρV^2, which is dependent upon density and projectile velocity only.

I'd recommend familiarizing yourself with the suggested reading materials provided by Shawn Dodson in a prior post:
- The Wound Profile & The Human Body: Damage Pattern Correlation by Martin L. Fackler, MD., Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1 Number 4
- Wound Ballistics Misconceptions by Duncan MacPherson, Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 2 Number 3
 
There is a tremendous amount of research supporting 10% gelatin which is not limited to the Wolberg paper, you might want to familiarize yourself with the IWBA provided by Mr. Dodson as well as the work done by Dr. Martin Fackler if you've not done so. D. MacPherson and the late Dr. Martin Fackler, held correctly, that so long as the test medium possesses the same internal sonic velocity, bulk modulus and density as the tissues that they are being used to simulate that the resulting terminal ballistic performance (expansion, penetration depth) would also produce similar results in soft tissue—the source from which I refer to the average material properties being represented by 10% gelatin. See Chapter 5 of Bullet Penetration for the explanation of dynamic equivalence as it relates to tissue simulation. There's really nothing to argue here. The science, and the test medium, is valid.

We've been to and fro in the other thread already, from Wolberg to MacPherson. Your position hasn't changed and neither has mine.

Edit: I see you just posted this in response to 460Shooter:

It is not illogical at all. One need look no farther than the fact that the density of the human body (unless there is an overabundance of adipose tissue) is just slightly greater than that of water. If we exhale, reducing internal buoyant air spaces to a minimum, then the human body sinks in water having an average density of about 1.02 grams per cubic centimeter. You seem to have taken out of context that I think that 10% ordnance gelatin represents what a bullet would do in each particular type of tissue when I have not made that claim. That gelatin represents the average density of the entire human body is correct and goes to ordnance gelatin's ability to reproduce the pressure (force per unit area), similar to that which it would encounter in a human body, that drives both bullet expansion and deceleration during a bullet's penetration.

If this was true, I would expect to see similar trajectories and bullet behaviours whether a subject was shot from posterior to anterior or anterior to posterior through the abdomen when the trajectory involved bone (such as the spine).
You can't apply the theory of an average tissue density to a projectile whose morphology and velocity are both changing, in response to non-homogeneous tissues being traversed.
That's the reason why we get strange trajectories in gunshot victims which are not emulated in gel.

Unexpected things can happen, even if bone is not struck.

This is the radiograph from Case 132 which is an example of a radical trajectory change even in the absence of a bone strike. The blue line is a straight line between the entrance and exit wounds whilst the red line is my best approximation of the actual trajectory, based on the damage I personally saw being documented during surgery and also based on clinical and radiological findings pre-surgery:

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This was a near contact wound with only a T-shirt intervening. Stipple proves the gun was aimed near horizontally:

0?e=1554940800&v=beta&t=4EJ7acnszRVJLelbkeakHlhvKE8o7-cndpiqJWhH-j4.jpg

The case is here:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ptlgc-case-132-brandon-bertolli?trk=portfolio_article-card_title

There are multiple possible reasons why this bullet followed that trajectory. We can debate that at length, but none of the possible answers will help your position.
My feeling is the bullet lost a lot of energy in the first half of the trajectory, especially since it met the left hemidiaphragm within a few centimetres of entry. The bullet then crossed the midline to the right upper quadrant.
There was a horizontal liver incision just before the 90 degree angle on the right which means it cannot be excluded that the right hemidiaphragm influenced the bullet at that point. I can't prove it, because no damage was found at surgery, to the right hemidiaphragm.
The bullet then travelled on an anterior inferior trajectory away from the liver. We didn't find any bowel injuries and the exit wound itself was anterior.

Let's consider average tissue density now. Am I to believe that the same injury would have happened if the entrance wound was where the exit is?

If the shot had been fired so that the opposite trajectory was in play, the bullet would have arrived at the right hemidiaphragm with a lot more energy because the left hemidiaphragm had not been perforated and the liver had not been in the way. It is highly likely the bullet would have perforated the right hemidiaphragm and carried on through a lot of low density right lung and finished somewhere in the right upper thorax, or exited posteriorly somewhere in that region.
It's a strong possibility.

When bones are involved, the direction of penetration matters even more. If you have a gunshot wound to the abdomen where the lumbar spine is struck first, the projectile can be destabilised early in its trajectory, often with dramatic effects on the bullet and the spine. If the bullet enters anteriorly, it can lose a lot of energy before it hits the spine. I have examples of intact bullets sitting in the spinal canal from trajectories with an anterior entrance wound.

Both the tissue density differences AND the order in which they are encountered, matters for a projectile which is slowing down. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't find projectiles in odd places, where they had encountered a tissue plane and followed it, particularly in the second half of the trajectory. You still have to add yaw and expansion variables to all of this.

I am sure that you are probably a fine x-ray tech, but really, I am already aware of what gelatin testing does, and does not, represent.

You are probably a fine student of Fackler and a gentleman too, but really, I think I will continue to put more stock in the observation of actual gunshot cases than your interpretation of any articles.

Ballistic gel is a valid homogeneous medium for testing and comparing ammunition in a reproducible manner. That is the best medium we have at the moment. I'm on board with that.

But real world cases say it doesn't simulate tissues to the degree that you have been asserting. So I guess we can't agree on that point...
 
It is not illogical at all. One need look no farther than the fact that the density of the human body (unless there is an overabundance of adipose tissue) is just slightly greater than that of water. If we exhale, reducing internal buoyant air spaces to a minimum, then the human body sinks in water having an average density of about 1.02 grams per cubic centimeter. You seem to have taken out of context that I think that 10% ordnance gelatin represents what a bullet would do in each particular type of tissue when I have not made that claim. That gelatin represents the average density of the entire human body is correct and goes to ordnance gelatin's ability to reproduce the pressure (force per unit area), similar to that which it would encounter in a human body, that drives both bullet expansion and deceleration during a bullet's penetration. Specifically, that relationship is computed by the Bernoulli Pressure equation, ½ρV^2, which is dependent upon density and projectile velocity only.

I'd recommend familiarizing yourself with the suggested reading materials provided by Shawn Dodson in a prior post:
- The Wound Profile & The Human Body: Damage Pattern Correlation by Martin L. Fackler, MD., Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1 Number 4
- Wound Ballistics Misconceptions by Duncan MacPherson, Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 2 Number 3
Perhaps illogical was the wrong word. Irrelevant is more appropriate. An average density has nothing to do with how a bullet is going to interact with varrying tissues layered in a living body. And I see that you understand that.

I will happily read the above linked articles when I get a new computer. I'm operating off of an iPhone on its last leg and I'm not going to try and read that small print like this. Perhaps they will change my perspective.

Regarding the average density, I feel average density is totally meaningless in this context. Even if it's 100% correct and the authors of those studies are trying to say that since it represents the average, that wound track deviations are acounted for, I say hog wash. An average ignores outliers and the ACTUAL effect that tissue variance will cause because the differences in tissue densities and elasticity are so wide that an average means only one thing. It means that a bullet can hit tissue that is close to the density of gel and be expected to act similarly, assuming no prior disruption. Riomouse911 and Odd Job have both shared stories indicating the deviation in wound paths that can occur in living bodies, and I'm guess here but the bullets likely didn't look like a perfectly expanded HP in those cases. Or maybe they weren't even HPs.

I'm sorry if I seemed argumentative or derogatory, and that certainly isn't my aim. I just feel that gel representing the average density of human tissue totally ignores the effects that bone and different tissue can have on the effects of a bullet.

Averages can be misleading. If you have 10 people working and 2 of them are making 2 million dollars each and 8 of them are making $25,000 each, on average that group of people makes $525,000 each. The differences are so great that an average is meaningless. There is enough difference between mammalian tissue that I feel an average density is equally meaningless. I am not a medical professional but I do have a strong biology background. I've taken a lot of animals apart as part of my education. I also work with a lot of hunters who recover bullets. Since they know my interests, they tell me about their experiences.

Gel tests are good, but interpretation is critical. Nonetheless, I'll read those articles as soon as I'm able.
 
We've been to and fro in the other thread already, from Wolberg to MacPherson. Your position hasn't changed and neither has mine.

Edit: I see you just posted this in response to 460Shooter:



If this was true, I would expect to see similar trajectories and bullet behaviours whether a subject was shot from posterior to anterior or anterior to posterior through the abdomen when the trajectory involved bone (such as the spine).
You can't apply the theory of an average tissue density to a projectile whose morphology and velocity are both changing, in response to non-homogeneous tissues being traversed.
That's the reason why we get strange trajectories in gunshot victims which are not emulated in gel.

Unexpected things can happen, even if bone is not struck.

This is the radiograph from Case 132 which is an example of a radical trajectory change even in the absence of a bone strike. The blue line is a straight line between the entrance and exit wounds whilst the red line is my best approximation of the actual trajectory, based on the damage I personally saw being documented during surgery and also based on clinical and radiological findings pre-surgery:

View attachment 825080

This was a near contact wound with only a T-shirt intervening. Stipple proves the gun was aimed near horizontally:

View attachment 825081

The case is here:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ptlgc-case-132-brandon-bertolli?trk=portfolio_article-card_title

There are multiple possible reasons why this bullet followed that trajectory. We can debate that at length, but none of the possible answers will help your position.
My feeling is the bullet lost a lot of energy in the first half of the trajectory, especially since it met the left hemidiaphragm within a few centimetres of entry. The bullet then crossed the midline to the right upper quadrant.
There was a horizontal liver incision just before the 90 degree angle on the right which means it cannot be excluded that the right hemidiaphragm influenced the bullet at that point. I can't prove it, because no damage was found at surgery, to the right hemidiaphragm.
The bullet then travelled on an anterior inferior trajectory away from the liver. We didn't find any bowel injuries and the exit wound itself was anterior.

Let's consider average tissue density now. Am I to believe that the same injury would have happened if the entrance wound was where the exit is?

If the shot had been fired so that the opposite trajectory was in play, the bullet would have arrived at the right hemidiaphragm with a lot more energy because the left hemidiaphragm had not been perforated and the liver had not been in the way. It is highly likely the bullet would have perforated the right hemidiaphragm and carried on through a lot of low density right lung and finished somewhere in the right upper thorax, or exited posteriorly somewhere in that region.
It's a strong possibility.

When bones are involved, the direction of penetration matters even more. If you have a gunshot wound to the abdomen where the lumbar spine is struck first, the projectile can be destabilised early in its trajectory, often with dramatic effects on the bullet and the spine. If the bullet enters anteriorly, it can lose a lot of energy before it hits the spine. I have examples of intact bullets sitting in the spinal canal from trajectories with an anterior entrance wound.

Both the tissue density differences AND the order in which they are encountered, matters for a projectile which is slowing down. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't find projectiles in odd places, where they had encountered a tissue plane and followed it, particularly in the second half of the trajectory. You still have to add yaw and expansion variables to all of this.



You are probably a fine student of Fackler and a gentleman too, but really, I think I will continue to put more stock in the observation of actual gunshot cases than your interpretation of any articles.

Ballistic gel is a valid homogeneous medium for testing and comparing ammunition in a reproducible manner. That is the best medium we have at the moment. I'm on board with that.

But real world cases say it doesn't simulate tissues to the degree that you have been asserting. So I guess we can't agree on that point...
You articulated many of my points far more eloquently than I did.
 
We've been to and fro in the other thread already, from Wolberg to MacPherson. Your position hasn't changed and neither has mine.

While they are interesting to look at, a handful of radiographic cases doesn't bring into question the validity of the physical model (calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin) either.

You are probably a fine student of Fackler and a gentleman too, but really, I think I will continue to put more stock in the observation of actual gunshot cases than your interpretation of any articles.

Ballistic gel is a valid homogeneous medium for testing and comparing ammunition in a reproducible manner. That is the best medium we have at the moment. I'm on board with that.

But real world cases say it doesn't simulate tissues to the degree that you have been asserting. So I guess we can't agree on that point...

Even though I suspect that it might have been intended as maybe a little bit tongue-in-cheek, I take your reference to my being a student of Dr. Fackler as a compliment. I am indeed a student of Dr. Fackler's work and that of others in the field who have developed the physical and mathematical models that predict terminal ballistic performance in soft tissue. Your straw man argument that I have somehow overstated the validity of the physical model does not stand. Your commentary above suggests that I do not believe that bullets do not deflect when striking bones or other hard/dense structures in the human body. I have never stated anything like that. I stated here and nothing more:

See Chapter 5 of Bullet Penetration for the explanation of dynamic equivalence as it relates to tissue simulation. There's really nothing to argue here. The science, and the test medium, is valid.

The three valid test mediums (10% gelatin @ 4 degrees Centigrade, 20% gelatin @ 20 degrees Centigrade and water) all share dynamic equivalence with human tissue. That is to say that all three mediums have the same internal sonic velocity, mass density and by extension of the Newton-LaPlace equation, c = √(K ÷ ρ), which inter-relates those physical properties, the same bulk modulus (K) as soft tissue.

As any ultrasound technician can tell you, the sonic velocity within soft tissue (whose mass density is 1.020 grams/cc) is 1,550 mps meaning that the bulk modulus (a measure of a substance's compressability) of soft tissue is 2.355 GPa. For 10% and 20% ordnance gelatin whose bulk modulus is 2.4 GPa and whose mass density is 1.030 and 1.060 grams/cc respectively, the internal speed of sound for 10% gelatin is 1526.5 mps and 20% gelatin is 1504.7 mps; virtually identical material properties compared to that of soft tissue. Not surprisingly, since we are composed of about 90% water, it also makes a very good tissue surrogate with a mass density of 0.99997 grams/cc (@ 4 degrees Centigrade), a sonic velocity of 1497 mps and a bulk modulus of 2.241 GPa...again closely matching that of soft tissue and the two concentrations of ordnance gelatin. These properties, which determine the pressure produced within the Bernoulli pressure field encountered by bullets, indicate that all four substances (soft tissue, 10% and 20% gelatin and water) are dynamically equivalent (in terms of the forces they produce on bullets) and dictate how bullets expand and decelerate in soft tissue.

For these reasons, the physical and mathematical models (e.g., the two modified Poncelet bullet penetration equations extant) are valid, repeatable predictors of terminal performance.
 
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Perhaps illogical was the wrong word. Irrelevant is more appropriate. An average density has nothing to do with how a bullet is going to interact with varrying tissues layered in a living body. And I see that you understand that

Thank you. Glad that you can see that and acknowledged it.

I will happily read the above linked articles when I get a new computer. I'm operating off of an iPhone on its last leg and I'm not going to try and read that small print like this. Perhaps they will change my perspective.

I do everything on a 17'' laptop now that my eyes have gotten 'old' and I have begun to see a decline in my focal field elasticity. I feel you on that......tiny screens are for 'young' eyes.

Regarding the average density, I feel average density is totally meaningless in this context. Even if it's 100% correct and the authors of those studies are trying to say that since it represents the average, that wound track deviations are acounted for, I say hog wash. An average ignores outliers and the ACTUAL effect that tissue variance will cause because the differences in tissue densities and elasticity are so wide that an average means only one thing. It means that a bullet can hit tissue that is close to the density of gel and be expected to act similarly, assuming no prior disruption. Riomouse911 and Odd Job have both shared stories indicating the deviation in wound paths that can occur in living bodies, and I'm guess here but the bullets likely didn't look like a perfectly expanded HP in those cases. Or maybe they weren't even HPs.

I'm sorry if I seemed argumentative or derogatory, and that certainly isn't my aim. I just feel that gel representing the average density of human tissue totally ignores the effects that bone and different tissue can have on the effects of a bullet.

Didn't take you that way so no worries. I explain above why the physical models work so well; they reproduce those physical properties that drive expansion and dictate deceleration in tissue. Perhaps the explanation will clear up any 'noise' in the point that I was making.

Nonetheless, I'll read those articles as soon as I'm able.

They are excellent research references. I hope that you find them to be of value.
 
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I am enjoying this discussion as I have other similar ones because I have learned from it but it kind of reminds me of the rifle caliber wars where 30-06, 308, 45-70. 30-30, etc, etc etc <insert old caliber here> are implied to be less adequate for deer than 6.5 Creedmore, 6 Creedmore, 6.5Hornady, etc etc etc <insert new caliber here>.

I do believe the 9mm 'screwdriver rounds might be more effective than my current carry Federal 147 gr.9mm +p but I have to believe in the two old sayings:

Shot Placement

and

Dead is Dead

I would probably go for the new rounds if:

1. there was more research and, most importantly time passed to allow for more real-world experience and
2. I didn't have such an investment in my current carry ammo and (at least) 3x that many practice rounds

Which is a real shame since I lost all my guns in that horrible boating accident ;)
 
Easiest way to see these ‘screwdriver’ rounds is check out Underwood ammo’s XD rounds using Lehigh Defense solid copper bullets.

Commo

This is the ammo I use for my 9mm and 40. For the 9mm I buy the +p stuff and it feels like shooting a standard 115 grain round (even though it's a lighter 90 grain round). Yes, it's expensive but that's ok when it comes to my self defense ammo. I love Underwood ammo, they make good stuff. It's pricey, but good, IMHO.
 
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I decided to shoot a few into shoulder roast to see if the so called Joint Agency Ballistics test was repeatable. I was hoping to disprove at least the Fort Scott copper rounds results. The thickness of the meat was between 4 and 5”. All rounds had to pass through the thin side of a 2x4 board prior to entering the meat target to (poorly) simulate bone or a barrier.

The 9mm Fort Scott 115g left a hole I had to fight to get my finger through. I felt no opening chamber in the middle of the meat for it either. I could only surmize that it hadn’t gone far enough to tumble yet. Disappointed, I fired the 115g 9mm round again 2 more times and got similar non-tumble-like results. In defense of Fort Scott, I truly believe if the target had been a depth of 6-12”, I would have seen evidence of a tumble and a dramatic cavitation opening deep within the wound. I’ll try to test this later.

The Underwood loaded Lehigh Extreme Defense rounds performed outstanding as far as I’m concerned. The holes looked very similar to what you see in gel for the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator (bigger near the entrance, then slowly tapering down in size along the path, all the while staying very consistent and not varying in diameter).

ALL the Underwood Extreme Defender holes were considerably larger than their bullet diameter. This tells me at least that the temporary wound cavitation caused the nicely symmetrical permanent wounds and were not due solely to crushing effects. I realize I may be missing something critical and that I may be off base here, but I just don’t get how there is this magical 2000 feet per second barrier before which there can be no permanent effect from the temporary cavitation.

To photo I manipulated, without tearing, the meat with a finger to open each wound to its actual wounding width. The Fort Scott 115g 9mm hole is the only non-Underwood/Lehigh round I fired. The Underwood/Lehigh rounds were;

* Extreme Defender 90g 9mm +P+ (Glock 45)

* Extreme Defender 120g 45 Super (Glock 21 stock barrel with 22lbs recoil spring). No smilies...ever

* Extreme Defender 115g 10mm (Glock 20)

* Extreme Defender 65g 357 Sig (Glock 22/5” conv)
 
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I decided to shoot a few into shoulder roast to see if the so called Joint Agency Ballistics test was repeatable. I was hoping to disprove at least the Fort Scott copper rounds results. The thickness of the meat was between 4 and 5”. All rounds had to pass through the thin side of a 2x4 board prior to entering the meat target to (poorly) simulate bone or a barrier.

The 9mm Fort Scott 115g left a hole I had to fight to get my finger through. I felt no opening chamber in the middle of the meat for it either. I could only surmize that it hadn’t gone far enough to tumble yet. Disappointed, I fired the 115g 9mm round again 2 more times and got similar non-tumble-like results. In defense of Fort Scott, I truly believe if the target had been a depth of 6-12”, I would have seen evidence of a tumble and a dramatic cavitation opening deep within the wound. I’ll try to test this later.

The Underwood loaded Lehigh Extreme Defense rounds performed outstanding as far as I’m concerned. The holes looked very similar to what you see in gel for the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator (bigger near the entrance, then slowly tapering down in size along the path, all the while staying very consistent and not varying in diameter).

ALL the Underwood Extreme Defender holes were considerably larger than their bullet diameter. This tells me at least that the temporary wound cavitation caused the nicely symmetrical permanent wounds and were not due solely to crushing effects. I realize I may be missing something critical and that I may be off base here, but I just don’t get how there is this magical 2000 feet per second barrier before which there can be no permanent effect from the temporary cavitation.

To photo I manipulated, without tearing, the meat with a finger to open each wound to its actual wounding width. The Fort Scott 115g 9mm hole is the only non-Underwood/Lehigh round I fired. The Underwood/Lehigh rounds were;

* Extreme Defender 90g 9mm +P+ (Glock 45)

* Extreme Defender 120g 45 Super (Glock 21 stock barrel with 22lbs recoil spring). No smilies...ever

* Extreme Defender 115g 10mm (Glock 20)

* Extreme Defender 65g 357 Sig (Glock 22/5” conv)

Not that I am asking you to do so (although you say that you going to try it), but it would have been interesting to see if the Fort Scott round began to yaw after say two or three thicknesses (2 or 3 x 5'' deep pieces) of the shoulder roasts. I suspect that you are correct that it'll take more dwell time in the test medium to see yaw develop.
 
Not that I am asking you to do so (although you say that you going to try it), but it would have been interesting to see if the Fort Scott round began to yaw after say two or three thicknesses (2 or 3 x 5'' deep pieces) of the shoulder roasts. I suspect that you are correct that it'll take more dwell time in the test medium to see yaw develop.

I’ll try just that and show the results when done. With more Fort Scott calibers as well.
 
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