Just One Question On A SBR

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Aaron hit the nail on the head with post 19.

I've bought plenty of AR stripped lower receivers to know that they are classified as "Other Firearm" on the 4473. And for that reason I like buying lower's stripped so I can do as I wish with a bare receiver as long as I abide by the laws.
 
Aaron Baker said:
Are you reading these threads before you post? This is exactly the issue being debated. No one has provided any compelling reason to believe that what's listed on the 4473 or in the manufacturer's paperwork matters.

Suggesting people send e-mails to manufacturers asking for that information is just going to stop people from legally making AR15 pistols, because A) lots of manufacturers will ignore these e-mails or be too busy to provide this information, and B) most people will think this is too much work and will be turned off by the process.

Seriously, unless you've got a compelling argument that this is legally necessary, don't just spread misinformation.

Aaron

:confused: Sending an email too much trouble? Are you kidding? I sent an email to PSA on a stripped lower I bought and they answered within 3 hours. Its called customer service and the people I do business with believe in it... or they end up with a bad reputation and lose customers.

The ATF has ruled that a pistol cannot be manufactured from a rifle. Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53 at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”).

So, you don't see potential problems with having "long gun" or "rifle" listed on a 4473 for a stripped lower then making it into a pistol? Clearly you don't understand the benefits of having clean and correct paperwork. Remember you are dealing with the federal government and all the stupidity it brings, like this 2008 case where a drill instructor in the National Guard has been convicted in a Wisconsin federal court of illegally transferring a machine gun after a rifle he loaned to a student malfunctioned, setting off three shots before jamming. If you ever have to explain to federal law enforcement why your 4473 suggests you purchased a rifle and you converted it into a pistol without getting your NFA stamp, make sure your attorney video tapes your "interview". :uhoh:

Don't have time to ensure your stripped lower was transferred from manufacturer to FFL and FFL to you correctly before making a pistol? That's your problem. :cool:
 
I sent an email to PSA on a stripped lower I bought and they answered within 3 hours.
I guess the problem is this...

  • Palmetto State Armory didn't manufacture your stripped lower. Aero Precision might have.
  • Whatever PSA's email might say (yea or nea), it holds no legal weight and can't harm you.
  • Whatever PSA's bound book says (rifle, pistol, other) doesn't hold the force of law and can't harm you.
  • If the true manufacturer made the mistake of designating an 'other firearm' in another category, it doesn't make that item something that it is not.

So we'd have to wonder what the point is in contacting the retail store where you purchased the lower. There is no substantive benefit in that.
So, you don't see potential problems with having "long gun" or "rifle" listed on a 4473 for a stripped lower then making it into a pistol?
No.

As the posts above yours have indicated, a fumble by a gun dealer doesn't put you in harms way. There is no federal law or interpretation thereof that states a 4473 or a bound book permanently re/designates a firearm's classification, and a mistaken entry into either doesn't carry the force of law.
...this 2008 case where a...
Olofson's rifle did not malfunction... other than it wasn't able to sustain the full auto fire he built it for, without jamming.
...ensure your stripped lower was transferred from manufacturer to FFL and FFL to you correctly...
Not only is there no real way to do that, there is no practical reason to do that.
 
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If none of the documentation on a receiver matters then what prevents someone from buying a S&W M&P15, removing the stock and replacing the 16" upper with a 10.5" and claiming its a pistol? According to the ATF this would be a "pistol made from a rifle" and NFA regulated. Who can say an FFL didn't buy the same rifle used at a gun show and months later sold the upper and lower to two different buyers? Wouldn't the prudent buyer of the receiver want to know if the firearm was originally manufactured as a "rifle", "pistol" or "other" before making an AR15 pistol? A receiver with nothing attached to it doesn't make it an "other firearm" because it was originally manufactured by S&W as a complete rifle. The language in ATF rule 2011-4 specifically says "...assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle...".

If the origins of a receiver didn't matter then the language in the NFA regarding "pistol made from a rifle" would be absolutely irrelevant and that would be somewhat surprising.
 
Coromo,
Looks like you made some edits after I read and replied... Interesting thread nonetheless.
 
If the origins of a receiver didn't matter then the language in the NFA regarding "pistol made from a rifle" would be absolutely irrelevant and that would be somewhat surprising.
Funny how that works, isn't it? ;)

Oh the tangled web we weave when we try to apply regulations created poorly to all the possible permutations human ingenuity could devise. :) I've said before, I really don't envy the BATFE's lawyers in reading (and undoubtedly re-reading over and over and over again) the federal code (especially that written back in 1934) and trying to play the mental game of pick-up-sticks required to "sensibly" apply it to guns and gun owners in the real world.
 
I don't think NFA branch is approving Forms 1 with "multi" as the caliber these days. Some have been returned of late requiring choice of a caliber. You can still use multiple uppers as your mood suits.
 
If none of the documentation on a receiver matters...
That's not what was posted. What has been posted more than once here is that mistakes on said documentation doesn't make something turn into something else that it is not. You can call a shoe an apple, and you can do this on an official government form, but the shoe isn't an apple.
...what prevents someone from buying a S&W M&P15, removing the stock and replacing the 16" upper with a 10.5" and claiming its a pistol?
Only the law could dissuade someone from doing it illegally or could persuade them to do it legally.
According to the ATF this would be a "pistol made from a rifle" and NFA regulated.
Pretty much. Reason being, that's what the law states. Nothing in the law states that a mishap on a 4473 or in a bound book, forever thereafter reclassifies that item as something that it never was.
Who can say an FFL didn't buy the same rifle used at a gun show and months later sold the upper and lower to two different buyers?
The FFL can say whether or not that happened. The seller possibly could say so as well. However robust the market is for used and stripped lower receivers, buyers therein need to assume that the used lowers were built into complete firearms.
Wouldn't the prudent buyer of the receiver want to know if the firearm was originally manufactured as a "rifle", "pistol" or "other" before making an AR15 pistol?
It's sort of a futile desire. There's almost no way to know what might have occurred with a USED and stripped lower receiver. I'd avoid them altogether because brand new ones are plentiful and cheap. But even if you or I were to buy one, we'll never be able to know what really ever happened with that item. We can ask a lot of people that we think were involved in its uses, but their answers don't give us anything to stand on. For example, I buy a used, stripped lower and I ask the seller if it was ever built into a rifle; whether he says yes or no, I still don't know what it might or might not have been built into. His word is worth squat.
A receiver with nothing attached to it doesn't make it an "other firearm" because it was originally manufactured by S&W as a complete rifle.
Right. If it was once made into a rifle, it became a rifle. A stripped receiver is an 'other firearm' when it has not been built into a completed firearm.
The language in ATF rule 2011-4 specifically says "...assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle...".
Again, right. If it was once made into a rifle, it became a rifle. A stripped receiver is an 'other firearm' when it has not been built into a completed firearm.
If the origins of a receiver didn't matter then the language in the NFA regarding "pistol made from a rifle" would be absolutely irrelevant and that would be somewhat surprising.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. It's really simple; if a receiver hasn't ever been built into a complete firearm, it is categorized as an 'other firearm' and not a long gun or a handgun. Period.
Looks like you made some edits after I read and replied.
I don't know what times are being posted where you are, but it says my last edit was at 12:58pm and your reply was at 1:03pm.
 
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Right. If it was once made into a rifle, it's a rifle.
Well, sort of. If it was FIRST made into a pistol it can be made into either at any time. So "once a rifle, always a rifle" doesn't apply.

As the law states you can't make a short firearm from an gun that is a rifle, and the ATF says that law doesn't apply to a gun that starts as a pistol even if it is built into something that looks JUST LIKE a rifle ... well, what do we say?

Once a rifle, maybe sometimes NOT a rifle?
 
Again, right. If it was once made into a rifle, it's a rifle. A stripped receiver is an 'other firearm' when it has not been built into a completed firearm.
Oh?

Take a stripped receiver into a dealer and sell it to him. He puts it up for sale as a ... what? ;)

The 4473 is going to tell him a bare receiver transfers as an "other firearm." It DOESN'T tell him that he's got to make any inquiry as to what it once might have been, nor does it tell any future owner what they might do with it once they have it. He is PRECISELY correct to mark and sell that as an "other firearm."

Maybe it was owned by 37 people along the way, but the very first guy built it as a pistol. Or maybe he didn't! Oh the angst! :D

This is non-prosecutable.
 
Note the edits before your posts. The 'once a rifle, always a rifle' isn't what I was referring to. I was not trying to say that once the receiver is built into a rifle, that the receiver in and of itself is forever designated as a rifle. Changing 'it's a rifle' to 'it became a rifle' was an attempt to clarify that. I don't think we are saying different things actually.

Something from what tepin mentioned...
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA, no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA.
This is saying that... If a stripped receiver was not used to make a NFA-regulated rifle, but rather, it was used to make a non-NFA rifle, an SBR is not made when the same receiver is assembled into another non-NFA configuration, like a handgun. Here's how I would read it...
So long as a receiver is not used to make a short barreled rifle, no short barreled rifle is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled into a handgun (a configuration not regulated under the NFA).
He is PRECISELY correct to mark and sell that [used receiver with unknown history] as an "other firearm."
What I said.
 
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Ahh, ok. Maybe I was misreading what you intended.

Instead of ...

Again, right. If it was once made into a rifle, it became a rifle. A stripped receiver is an 'other firearm' when it has not been built into a completed firearm.

... rather:

"...If it was once made into a rifle, it became a rifle. A stripped receiver is an 'other firearm' when is not currently built into a completed firearm."
 
Well, it IS confusing. It almost HAS to be!

The ATF writes an opinion that tells you you can build it either way if you start with a pistol, but only as a rifle if you first start with a rifle.

And that ignores the fact that it may be transferred at some point, stripped down, thus erasing from any possible evidence how it was configured at any time in the past. (Except in cases of KNOWN rifle builds where that serial number came from the factory as a rifle. ... PROBABLY.)

So the BATFE is saying they'll (well...they COULD) enforce this, but that's at least half a lie because in a terribly great number of cases there's no way it could ever be proved.
 
Thank you, CoRoMo and Sam1911 for both chiming in with your accurate summaries of the issues and lucid responses to tepin. I was afraid I was going to have to log in after work and write a diatribe to explain myself.

Ah, what the hell... why waste the chance to rant?

Let's start with some inarguable facts:

Fact #1: The ATF (and their representatives in the courts, the United States Assistant Attorneys) have the burden of proof in any criminal case. They must prove beyond a reasonable doubt all the elements of any offense, including offenses under the National Firearms Act.

Fact #2: The National Firearms Act defines what a rifle is, what a pistol is and what a short-barreled rifle is.

Fact #3: The ATF is a federal agency without the resources to check in on every gun owner and research the history of their firearms to check for their legality under obscure and arcane interpretations of the law.

So, with those facts established, what are we talking about? We're talking about making AR15 pistols and not accidentally running afoul of the National Firearms Act of 1934. We all know that if we want to make a legal short-barreled rifle, we can start with any firearm (rifle, pistol or "other"), file the proper application, receive the proper stamp, and then build a firearm that meets the statutory definition of a short-barreled rifle.

The potential problem for someone making an AR15 pistol is that while it is okay to make an "other" firearm into a pistol, it's not okay in all circumstances to make a rifle into a pistol. This is because part of the definition of short-barreled rifle in the NFA is "any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches." So if you have a firearm that is a rifle, and you make it into a pistol less than twenty-six inches long, you've made a short-barreled rifle.

Ah, but not so fast! See, there was this United States Supreme Court case where the Thompson Contender company was selling kits that contained a receiver, a short barrel, a long barrel and a buttstock. There were warnings with the kits that you should not build a configuration with the buttstock and the short barrel without getting a tax stamp. Thompson's idea was that you could make either a pistol or a rifle and switch back and forth at will.

The ATF, though, said no way. They said that if you made the kit into a rifle, then any firearm you made it into after that was a "weapon made from a rifle with an overall length of less than twenty-six inches."

The US Supreme Court called hooey, and Thompson Contender won. For a while after that, the ATF took the position that the case ONLY protected Thompson's kits, and that the logic didn't apply to any other firearm.

This is known as the "once a rifle, always a rifle" doctrine.

In recent years, the ATF has backed off of this interpretation. They now say that as long as a receiver is made into a pistol FIRST, it can thereafter be made into a rifle, then turned back into a pistol without breaking the law. However, the ATF continues to hold that if the firearm begins its life as a rifle, then it cannot ever legally become a pistol.

Perhaps a little flow-chart would be helpful.

virgin receiver --> pistol OK!
virgin receiver --> rifle OK!
virgin receiver --> pistol ---> rifle OK!
virgin receiver --> rifle --> pistol NO WAY, JOSE!
virgin receiver --> pistol --> rifle --> pistol OK!
virgin receiver --> pistol --> rifle --> pistol --> rifle --> pistol OK!
virgin receiver --> rifle --> stripped receiver --> pistol NO WAY, JOSE!

Are you seeing the pattern? As long as it's made into a pistol first, you can swap back and forth as much as you want, forever. But if it's made into a rifle first, then you cannot ever make it into a pistol.

Now where people start to get more confused when they want to make an AR15 pistol is when they ask the question: But how do I know whether this hunk of metal in my hand is a virgin receiver? How do I know that it isn't somehow technically a "rifle" or a "pistol" already?

There are three cases we're concerned about, and they should be discussed separately.

First case: a stripped lower receiver bought from a dealer who bought it directly from the manufacturer.

This is EASY, but as we can see above, people want to make it hard. What defines the status of a stripped receiver? Well, what it looks like.

And this is the major point: it doesn't matter what the manufacturer's forms say and it doesn't matter what the dealer's forms say. You can't transform a stripped receiver into a rifle from a legal perspective just by writing it on a piece of paper any more than you can transform a stripped receiver into a turnip by writing it on a piece of paper. This is because (wait for it), the ATF must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your firearm meets the criteria for an unregistered short-barreled rifle.

So they have to prove two things:
1) It's not registered.
2) It's a short barreled rifle because it meets the legal definition.

The legal definition is "any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches." And to show that they've met that burden, they have to show it was made from a rifle. The legal definition of rifle is "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger."

If it was never a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder, (aka had a stock on it) and made to shoot a projectile through a rifled bore (aka had a barrel), then it was never a rifle and therefore cannot be a short-barreled rifle.

Even if the dealer incorrectly marked the 4473 as "rifle," the receiver wasn't a rifle if it didn't have a barrel and a stock.

So, if you bought a stripped receiver from a dealer who got it from a manufacturer, you can build it into a pistol. PERIOD. You don't have to get documentation from the manufacturer or even care what the dealer puts on the 4473. You know it never had a stock and barrel on it, so you're good to go.

(And as to tepin's point that it's good insurance to just contact the dealer and manufacturer to check: the problem is A) you're bothering people that are busy and have better things to do and you sound like a loony, and B) you have no guarantee that they didn't just tell you what you wanted to hear. Good thing it doesn't matter!)

Second case: a stripped receiver that you milled yourself from a piece of aluminum, from an 80% lower receiver, or glued together using sticks of bubble gum

This should go without saying, but perhaps it doesn't. It's legal to make your own firearms for your own use. As many as you want, whenever you want. (Let's not get into the legal gray area of when personal manufacturing becomes commercial manufacturing. You know whether you're truly building for your own use or for sale.)

If you made the receiver, you know it was never a rifle. So you're good to go.

Third case: a stripped receiver bought from a source that makes its provenance disputable

This is the "used" receiver. Maybe you got it from a buddy. Maybe you bought it at a gun show from a private individual. Maybe you bought it from a dealer who told you it was used. Maybe you found it at the bottom of a river. No matter where you got it, you have no way of knowing whether it was ever assembled into a functional firearm before it came into your hands.

Look, if you're a cautious, risk-adverse person by nature, then don't build this receiver into a pistol. Why? No good reason...

except that maybe it was once built into a rifle without being built as a pistol first. Go back to the flowcharts above. See that last example? That might have happened here and you'd have no way to ever know. If it was built as a rifle and then became a stripped receiver again and you build it into a pistol, then you're in violation of the National Firearms Act, according to the ATF's current interpretations.

But if YOU can't prove what the receiver may have been originally built into, how in the heck do you think the ATF is going to prove it? And let's not forget Fact #1. You don't have the burden of showing that it was a pistol first. The ATF has the burden of showing it wasn't. And let's not forget Fact #3. They don't have the energy to waste trying to figure it out because they don't care. Unless you're a white supremacist living in a walled compound, smuggling cigarettes and building illegal machine guns. And you know what? Even then, they don't care enough to do the research on the AR15 pistol. They're just gonna bust you for the other stuff.

You might well conclude, if you're an adventurous, care-free sort of a soul, that you simply have no risk of being prosecuted on the unlikely chance that the used stripped receiver you bought was once a rifle before it was ever a pistol and before you bought it in its current state. I say: go for it man, live life on the edge. Have some bacon for breakfast while you're at it.

Conclusion

So there you go. My rant on why people are worrying too much about making AR15 pistols from stripped lower receivers. And just to cover the other often-discussed points again:

1. You don't need to mark the lower with the words "pistol" or buy one that's marked that way. Markings don't make the gun a pistol. Its configuration makes it a pistol.

2. You don't need a dedicated pistol buffer tube. But they don't hurt. If you have a pistol buffer tube, there's never a question that you've got a pistol. You can also use a regular carbine or rifle length buffer tube. The ATF says it's okay. (Really, they do--the tech branch letters are out there.) But if you happen to have an extra buttstock laying around that can slip onto that non-pistol tube, and if you happen to have the ATF bust down your door, then you'll probably get into trouble. Proceed at your own risk, having being properly advised.

And, because this was a long rant on a legal topic, a short disclaimer before I sign off: I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer and this isn't legal advice and we don't have an attorney-client relationship. If you're really worried, go pay a lawyer that's extremely knowledgeable about the NFA to get the same information I just gave you for free. Then if he's wrong, you can sue him, not me.

Aaron
 
This is because part of the definition of short-barreled rifle in the NFA is "any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches." So if you have a firearm that is a rifle, and you make it into a pistol less than twenty-six inches long, you've made a short-barreled rifle.

...

The ATF, though, said no way. They said that if you made the kit into a rifle, then any firearm you made it into after that was a "weapon made from a rifle with an overall length of less than twenty-six inches."

The US Supreme Court called hooey

And that's one of those decisions that makes me wonder what was in their Wheaties that morning that made them decide in our favor. Because there's no way to read the law and come up with the decision they did based on the strict wording written there.

What is a rifle? Well, something "designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder." Is a kit gun with a shoulder stock and a rifled barrel a rifle? By that definition, absolutely! If you have such a thing and you make it into something ... ANYTHING ... less than 26" long, what have you done??? :what:

If I didn't favor the decision so much, I'd have to say they were WRONG! Thank heavens, though! :)
 
But if YOU can't prove what the receiver may have been originally built into, how in the heck do you think the ATF is going to prove it? And let's not forget Fact #1. You don't have the burden of showing that it was a pistol first. The ATF has the burden of showing it wasn't.
To be perfectly frank, though, if the receiver says, say, "Colt M4" on it they could call up Colt's Mfg. and ask if a rifle was shipped with that serial number. If Colt says yes, well, that would shift that burden of proof a bit over onto your shoulders.

Now, maybe this ISN'T the receiver that Colt shipped as a rifle with that serial number, but one that someone made on their own and engraved to look like a Colt ... well...:scrutiny:
 
How to turn a AR rifle into an AR pistol......

1. Buy an AR rifle........dealer will record it on the 4473 as a Long Gun.
2. Take it apart, sell the complete lower. Ship to the buyers FFL, who per ATF must log that receiver as an "Other Firearm" on the 4473.
3. Buyer now has an Other Firearm, and can remove the shoulder stock and add a pistol length barrel and voila.............he's got a handgun.

When I posed that example to my IOI and asked if it was legal all he would do is smile and repeat "lowers are not handguns or long guns, they are other firearms".;)

Don't take the above as legal advice or a how too guide, it's just an example of how firearms laws from 1934 have been eclipsed by modern firearms designs. ATF makes regulations and determinations based on the letter of those antiquated federal laws and when those laws get challenged and get before a federal judge interesting things can happen to say the least.:eek:
 
Sam1911 said:
To be perfectly frank, though, if the receiver says, say, "Colt M4" on it they could call up Colt's Mfg. and ask if a rifle was shipped with that serial number. If Colt says yes, well, that would shift that burden of proof a bit over onto your shoulders.
Call me paranoid but this is exactly why I contacted Palmeto State Armory... and I slept better at night knowing my AR15 pistol was good to go, which is all that matters to me. Considering I had to pay $200 and wait 6 months to slide a stock over my pistols buffer tube shows how outdated the NFA is.

Anyway, still a useful discussion. :)
 
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