Labradar users. Can you recommend this chronograph?

[santacruzdave]

Measuring velocity with an optical chronograph has become more of a challenge now that the days have become very short and my shooting club is located in a narrow tree lined ravine, making it fairly dark most of the day. And there is the setup time and resulting inconvenience to fellow range users who have to wait while I get the chronograph setup. I use a Cadwell Precision Chronograph connected to a mobile phone. Not a bad combination for full light situations.

One choice is to get a light kit. That would solve the lighting problem at the cost of setup time and would also add to the complexity for setting up the chronograph and the inconvenience factor. The advantage of the light kit is it is very low cost even counting the numerous batteries it will consume.

Another solution is the Labradar. I've read a number of reviews on line. Most are favorable and the Labradar looks to be an elegant solution. One advantage is setup which is done completely behind the firing line, so the setup can be done while the range is "hot" and no one has to wait while the chronograph is being setup.

So, do you have and use a Labradar? Is setup and aiming the unit easy? How hard is it to get the data into a spreadsheet? Do you get many missed shot errors? Can you recommend this unit?

Thanks for your input!

 

[taliv]

i don't own one because i have lots of friends that do. imho it's a PITA to set up. I'm not a fan.
however, if you do get it set up, and people aren't shooting across your lane or too close to you, and you can shoot until you tune out their shots and get it just right, then it will give you accurate data.

magnetospeed is way easier and cheaper and more useful. however, some people just like tinkering with cool stuff and radar is definitely cool

 

[Allen One1]

If you have the cash buy it. I have the Magnetospeed and really like it, but almost everyone at our range is getting the Labradar when they upgrade. It is rare now that I don't see one when i go to the range. The difference in velocity between the Magnetospeed and Labradar is single digit. The Magnetospeed is reading right off the muzzle and the Labradar is picking the bullet up 6-10 feet out. With the Labradar you can shoot groups and check velocity at the same time.

 

[taliv]

I shoot groups with magnetospeed all the time. Change in poi has never been more than .5" at 100

 

[mcb]

I am serious considering one also. My old Shooting Chrony Alpha Master is getting pretty old and worn. As I understand from my research on Labradar you can also use it to calculate ballistic coefficients. In addition to the five velocity at set ranges it displays on the screen, if you have and SD card installed Labradar will store velocity and range data at one millisecond intervals for the bullets flight going down range, until it looses signal. That data can be use to calculate a very accurate ballistic coefficient for your particular bullet at your velocities

 

[taliv]

That data can be use to calculate a very accurate ballistic coefficient for your particular bullet at your velocities

No it can't. Not practically.
The "bc" varies by velocity.
The published bc is a considered blend of different velocities. You can much more accurately model the long range trajectory by using the right bcs at different velocities.

So yeah if you want to get the absolute real bc inside 100 yards (inside your zero range) then by all means, spend $700 on a lab radar. But if you use that bc for 500 or 1000 or 1500 yards etc you will have outsmarted yourself.

Now I suppose it would be possible to place your lab radar 1500 yards down range and then shoot JUST beside it to pick up the change in velocity. But who really does that?

 

[mcb]

No it can't. Not practically.
The "bc" varies by velocity.
The published bc is a considered blend of different velocities. You can much more accurately model the long range trajectory by using the right bcs at different velocities.

So yeah if you want to get the absolute real bc inside 100 yards (inside your zero range) then by all means, spend $700 on a lab radar. But if you use that bc for 500 or 1000 or 1500 yards etc you will have outsmarted yourself.

Now I suppose it would be possible to place your lab radar 1500 yards down range and then shoot JUST beside it to pick up the change in velocity. But who really does that?

The ballista data from lab radar would let you calculate a more accurate BC then most manufactured publish since most of them just force a fit to a G1 or G7 BC which may not be the best model. If you have the data you can see which model G1 G2 etc fits your data. You can get the longer range data by down loading you choosen bullet to get the delta V at lower velocities. Not easy but fun.

 

[Allen One1]

I shoot groups with magnetospeed all the time. Change in poi has never been more than .5" at 100

I have had groups shrink with the Magnetospeed attached so you think things are working better than they really are. Or they can of course look worse. Push that .5" out to 1000 and you are way off the target. But I know that what you are saying is possible.

 

[taliv]

If you have the data you can see which model G1 G2 etc fits your data. You can get the longer range data by down loading you choosen bullet to get the delta V at lower velocities. Not easy but fun.

The use of the theoretical profiles (flat base vs vld for example) are really solver specific. All the solvers treat the numbers differently. In many cases they're just a constant.

Also if you want to download your ammo so that the Mv of your 6.5cm is 2400 and 2000 and 1600 and 1200 fps and chronograph all of that and then calculate the Bcs then sure.
That's essentially what you'd get by simply buying bryan litz custom curves.

But let's not give people the impression that the labradar magically calculates your long range bc with every shot at 100 yards.

 

[taliv]

I have had groups shrink with the Magnetospeed attached so you think things are working better than they really are.

Oddly enough I find my groups are slightly smaller with the magnetospeed too.
But in terms of time and money it's easier and cheaper to shoot an extra group without the magnetospeed to verify the group size than to set up the labradar

 

[mcb]

The use of the theoretical profiles (flat base vs vld for example) are really solver specific. All the solvers treat the numbers differently. In many cases they're just a constant.

Also if you want to download your ammo so that the Mv of your 6.5cm is 2400 and 2000 and 1600 and 1200 fps and chronograph all of that and then calculate the Bcs then sure.
That's essentially what you'd get by simply buying bryan litz custom curves.

But let's not give people the impression that the labradar magically calculates your long range bc with every shot at 100 yards.

Agreed it is possible to do it and I did not mean to imply it would be easy. It would take some work. But if your using a bullet without that info easily available you could generate it yourself with Labradar if your willing to put in the work.

 

[Doublehelix]

I love my Labradar, and you couldn't pry it out of my dead hands. Yep, it was pricey, but IMHO, worth every penny. If it ever dies, I will replace it in a heartbeat.

I have no issues setting it up, ever. I have even used it at an indoor range, and I had the last lane right next to a cinder block wall. I never thought it would work, but it did... flawlessly, even with other shooters in the same bay (2 lanes away).

It is easy, accurate, and takes about 20 seconds to setup. As with anything else, there is a learning curve with it, but now I don't even think about it any more.

The data is output onto an SD card in CSV format, which goes right into Excel. I created a macro to format the data and to re-calculate all of the stats in real time, so that if I delete a string that is obviously flawed, all of the calculations are automatically updated to reflect the deleted string. I love it.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have a LabRadar and my experience mirrors Doublehelix's.

I've measured mostly handguns with it and have not worried too much about the down range velocities at this point in time. I've used it a little bit with rifle without issue but I only have 100 yard range. I do shoot into a hill and have not issues with false signals.

There is a bit of a learning curve to remember to set some of the various parameters that affect some of the calculations, particularly when changing loads, cartridges, bullets, etc.

If you shoot too quick between shots, the LabRadar will miss the second shot. It tends to be a bit longer to reset between shots than the optical chronographs that I have. I did have to re-calibrate myself to wait a few extra seconds for the LabRadar to be ready for the next shot.

Having an auxiliary battery is very helpful. About any USB backup battery will work, the battery that LabRadar sells is not an absolute necessary item to buy if you already have a battery.

The .csv files are nice for downloading data to a computer. It uses semi-colons for the delimiters which, I understand, works fine with Excel but not Apple's Numbers. I rinse the files through TextEdit to convert the semi-colon delimiters to commas before uploading the file to Numbers.

I also have a Magnetospeed. Works great but attaching the bayonet is a pain. Different barrel diameter mean futzing with the various spacers to get the sensors an appropriate distance for the bullet path and , in my opinion, it is not a user friendly attachment system. I have the V2 version, maybe they have improved the mounting. system of the bayonet.

 

[taliv]

Yeah the spacer system for the magnetospeed is annoying. At least it's fast once you figure it which one to use. I mostly use two, one for suppressed and one for brakes. Even so it only takes a few seconds to switch.

id concede that if I only shot groups the labradar would be ok. But practically I enjoy shooting steel at a large field of targets that may extend 120* arc or more and further I challenge myself to make hits fast. Like 5 targets (different distances and directions) in 20 seconds. With the magnetospeed attached to the bbl it continues to work no matter what targets I'm shooting. So in practice I tend to collect a lot more data than I would if I just Chronographed when shooting groups on paper

 

[cfullgraf]

But practically I enjoy shooting steel at a large field of targets that may extend 120* arc or more and further I challenge myself to make hits fast. Like 5 targets (different distances and directions) in 20 seconds. With the magnetospeed attached to the bbl it continues to work no matter what targets I'm shooting.

Yup, the Magnetospeed would definitely have an advantage over other chronographs when changing targets while collecting chronograph data.

 

[Offfhand]

The original question was would I recommend a Labradar unit. the short answer is NO I would not. At least not for the present. For a number of reasons. One reason being there will surely be further price reductions as chronos with similar technology appear on the market and substantially lower prices. (look for Chinese copies soon, al la Midway, etc.) Also worth waiting for improved versions of the Labradar as current version has significant shortcomings and limitations such as the basic program itself and others such as velocity limit. (why stop at 4000 fps?) I've been testing and comparing the Labradar since they were introduced and have been disappointed at their failure to even discuss need for improvement. But hopefully that attitude will change when they are hit with competition chronos featuring features they lack. Having said that, I feel they have made a big step forward in consumer grade chronographs that will prove beneficial to amateur experimenters. Attached is a photo taken when I was comparing a Labradar to an Oehler 35P. Which I still consider the "gold standard" of consumer grade chronographs.

 

[Doublehelix]

The original question was would I recommend a Labradar unit. the short answer is NO I would not. At least not for the present.

I get what @Offfhand is saying, but I disagree. He obviously makes some great points that have been thoroughly researched and thought out, and I respect that.

Will there be some low-cost knock-offs coming soon? Of course, that is the million dollar question, but I would have to say that it is not a given. For one, this is a small market and in order to profit, you need to have a large enough market to address. Since the US is sort of the gold standard when it comes to gun freedoms, the worldwide market outside of the US is probably limited.

Before I finally bought the Labradar, I wondered the same thing, and posed that question online more than once. However, I realized that I might be waiting for a long time to save some money, and in the mean time I was missing out on a great product that uses great technology.

There is some reason no one has duplicated this thing. Too small of an available market? The technology is still very expensive? Legal issues getting doppler radar approved in the US/Canada? (Labradar is a Canadian company.) Patent issues in the US/Canada? There is something holding them back...

This is sort of like waiting to buy a new phone or computer because a newer, faster model is "just around the corner". That will always be the case, and in the mean time you are missing out on using a VERY COOL device. There will always be some new technology coming, and if we are always waiting for the perfect device, we will find that it never gets here.

Are there some shortcomings to the Labradar? Maybe a few. I did not realize that the unit had a 4,000 fps upper limit, but then again, I never shoot anything that goes that fast, so I guess that fact did not matter to me. I am also guessing that there are very few people that shoot projectiles at over 4,000 fps, and Labradar made a product that meets the 80/20 rule, or in this case maybe the 90/10 rule, (or even the 95/5 rule!) but for those that do need the higher speeds, this would not be the right product for them.

But just because it does not read faster than 4,000 fps does not make a great product nonetheless. Maybe the doppler technology has a limitation at 4,000 fps, or maybe the cost involved to go with a larger radar receiver in order to register higher than 4,000 fps is just cost-prohibitive. Who knows??? Maybe they felt that the market did not require those speeds and the cost to provide that feature was just too high.

I don't see the basic program limitations that @Offfhand sees, although I have heard that from others as well. That does not mean that they don't exist, but I think the unit is fine and works as advertised. I love it.

I would love the see the Bluetooth control feature added, which has been promised to be released sometime during the last half of 2017, and that obviously did not happen due to some internal issues. Just to be clear, all Labradar units have Bluetooth capability built into them, you just cannot access it yet.

This Bluetooth implementation means we will soon have the ability to control the Labradar from a mobile device and also the ability to collect the data on your mobile device. Pretty cool! This might also address some of the programming issues that some folks have with the unit. Again, I personally have no issues with the programming, and after using if for a while, it just becomes second nature to setup and use.

The biggest issue that sticks out for me in @Offfhand's post is the lack of response by Labradar to his suggestions and comments. This is disturbing to me for many reasons. Customer Service is #1 every time, and that means responding to customer feedback. Add that to the delay in the Bluetooth release, and you start to potentially see a pattern here that does not inspire confidence.

I still say the Labradar is a great product, and I would recommend it 100% without hesitation.

 

[ATLDave]

If magneotspeed was suitable for use with pistols, I might be into it.

 

[cfullgraf]

To add to my Post #13 above, I'm more likely to get out the LabRadar and get some quick data than I am with the optical chronographs that I had or the Magnetospeed.

Additionally, I've had two optical chronographs expire for "lead poisoning" (aka, they got shot!). At least the LabRadar is out of harms way except for the blast from a muzzle brake.

My V2 Magnetospeed really does not do pistol. The newer versions are supposed to be more pistol capable but I have no personal experience with that.

With my last optical chronograph, a CED M2, I gave up using natural lighting for triggering the chronograph and bought the light kit. Triggering the chronograph got virtually 100% reliable after I added the light kit.

With cutting edge technology, I've found if you not buy something waiting on a lower cost or an improved system, you'll never buy. I make the decision to buy and just do not look back or second guess my decision.

I'm happy with my LabRadar.

 

[TfflHndn]

I recently got my Labradar and have tried it out only a few times. I also have a Magnetospeed. The Labradar is more versatile; i.e., easier to use with all manner of rifles and pistols, although I don't think it can be used for shotguns as the Magnetospeed can. (I haven't tried.) As mentioned above, the Magnetospeed goes where you point your barrel, so there is no issue with acquiring the projectile. But the Magnetospeed is a pain to align properly and the straps don't seem to stay tight. And it's not usable on all barrels, particularly pistol barrels. Semi-autos require an adapter and a rail on the gun. Single-actions like the Blackhawk are tricky to strap up, and you can't use the ejector when you do. Short-barrel handguns, fuggedaboutit. Still, for testing rifle loads the Magnetospeed works very well. The Labradar takes a bit of set-up too. I haven't had the issues with aiming it that I have read about. I have the base plate, which is good for use with rifles, and a tripod, which is better with handguns. I have not yet tried to download the data to Excel. All in all, I think I will likely use the Labradar more regularly than the Magnetospeed, particularly since I can take different guns and loads and switch between them far more readily with it. I would recommend both, but if I had to buy one or the other now, it would be the Labradar.

 

[jmorris]

I was on the list o get one of the first ones when they came out. When they had delay after delay getting them to market, I decided to hold off.

A friend got one, then the extra battery pack, stand, extra trigger adapter so it would work with things that didn’t make enough noise. It was nice but I decided to hold off, maybe the 2nd generation, when they incorporate the extras into the base unit and price goes down.

As for your problem setting up, on overcast days I just set it out there and turn it on. Let the clouds act as your sky screens. I actually prefer these “dark days” to a bright shiny day where I have to fight shadows or direct sunlight.



One time I needed to use one but didn’t finish the project until after dark.

Didn’t really have time or “stuff” to come up with anything fancy but this worked.

 

[landag]

Addressing Offhand & Doublehelix comments:
1) I agree, their customer service is way south of satisfactory; they won't answer any questions, e.g. why the vibration sensitivity or why they won't give out info on their >4K fps units. They don't answer email questions and are really condescending on the phone.
2) I purchased mine to calculate BC's which of course change with velocity, so being able to get velocities at several ranges was attractive. It gives results beyond 30 yards only about 25% of the time and I have never gotten any 100yd reading.
3) It sensitive to any type vibration, i.e. I can't rest on the bench supporting the LABRADAR.
4) It gobbles up batteries fast. I tried a car battery/inverter set-up but ended up having to take a small generator to the range.
5) On the plus side its much faster to set up than my Oheler 43 . . . which is small consolation since I have to set up the 43 anyway for pressure readings.

Bottom line, I've got it and I use it when I only need muzzle velocity data, but I wouldn't get another one.

 

[Cherokee]

I recommend it. I agree with post #12, that is how I use it with SD card and load the file direct into Excel. It has its "setup" quirks like at chron but they are all at the firing line.

 

[cfullgraf]

4) It gobbles up batteries fast. I tried a car battery/inverter set-up but ended up having to take a small generator to the range.

I've never used the internal battery compartment which holds 4 AA batteries if I remember, but I would not be surprised that these batteries would not last long.

Using a USB backup battery, the type that charges/runs your phone/tablet/iPod etc, my labRadar will operate all afternoon and still have lots of battery power left at the end of the day.

A lot more convenient than trying to run the chronograph off the car or dragging a generator to the range.

 

[Load Master]

I've owned my LabRadar for more than most folks, as I was one of the first to purchase one. It is not for the technically challenged. However, if you are a technical junky and understand how to use and make your own spreadsheets to play with data you will love all of the data this orange box will provide. It is nothing short of amazing.

Key features that I like:

1. Sets behind the muzzle, pretty hard to shoot it like what happens with chronographs of other types.
2. Generates a bullet tracking file from the muzzle to down range, way more data than a simple muzzle velocity.
3. Downloadable firmware updates.
4. Will measure pistol, rifle, and pellet guns plus archery.

I use a usb power pack that will power the LabRadar for 8 hours plus. As far as setup, once you understand what the unit needs it can be ready to go in less than 2 minutes from box to bench or tripod stand.

Would I recommend it? Not to some of my friends as I know it would cause them nothing but pure frustration. I need to point out some of them can't stand using a smart phone. On the other hand, my techie type friends would love it and I would highly recommend it to them. I hope this helps answer your question.

Measurement made with the LabRadar: