Lateral movement to escape line of fire

[Jerkstore]

People put a lot of confidence into something not understood and it has and will get people killed.

Basically, action is only guaranteed to start before reaction, by definition. There is no guarantee action will complete before reaction completes. When it comes to fighting, nobody gives a rat's behind about who cleared leather first. They don't give out ribbons for that. What they care about is who won/survived better.

If action is ALWAYS faster than reaction, then you would not be able to catch your spouse who left the house just 3 seconds before you because she will always be 3 seconds ahead of you. Is that not amazing? You say, that is ridiculous. I just need to move a little faster than my spouse and I will catch them. And POOF, just like that, reaction will beat action.

If action ALWAYS beats reaction, then passes could not be intercepted and goalies could not block shots on goal, except by sheer luck.

If action ALWAYS beat reaction, you would not be able to parry a blow from an attacker, which is really amazing so many people who teach self defense will teach how to beat action with reaction by teaching you to parry blows, but will still spout how action always beats reaction.

Ever win a game of hand slaps? If so, then most assuredly it was because reaction beat action one or more times during the course of play.

You see, action is only guaranteed to beat reaction when you are talking about the start of the movement, not the completion of it. If action is going to beat reaction to the completion of a task, it is dependent upon several things to hold true that in real life don't always hold true.

Action beats reaction to the completion of a task only when the time taken to complete the reaction (including the delayed start) is more than the time it takes action to complete a task. Reaction (with the delayed start) can beat action by completing the task quicker than the time needed by action to complete the task. For example, you wind up a roundhouse punch to take off my head. Your hand to punch me has to travel 2-3 feet and my hand to block your punch only needs to travel a few inches. If I start moving right after you start moving, I will beat you. Even though I reacted after you acted, because I had less distance to travel to the intercept point, I got there first and blocked your punch. Here, the key point to remember is that in the real world, not everything is equal. In a very hypothetical world, action always beats reaction when the time to accomplish respective tasks is comparable or when reacting takes longer. To defeat your action does not always require a reaction on my part that is as time consuming.

Then you have the additional concept to consider of effective action and effective reaction. Let's say you and I are in a gunfight where you drew and fired first. Me, being older and slower, wasn't ever going to win against you in getting my gun drawn, but that isn't really the important issue at hand. You aren't getting a ribbon for starting first. So you draw and fire very quickly....and miss (for whatever reason) and I shoot you AFTER you tried to shoot me and I win the fight. I know that sounds outrageous and if it would make you feel better, we will say I drew first and missed. I don't care. This is a pretend example, but one that plays out time and time again in the REAL world.

Action CAN beat reaction, no doubt about it. Action may OFTEN beat reaction, which may be true. However, action does NOT always be reaction to completion, which is what matters.

That makes total sense. And the width of the torso v. the width of a forehead causes the torso to be slower in getting out of the way. My only point is that you can still USUALLY get out of the way or at least minimize the chance of being shot in a critical organ. If 3-4 bullets are thrown in your direction somewhat arbitrarily while you're moving by a bad guy who probably doesn't practice shooting much, there is a good chance (my guess is 80%) of survival. Maybe some on here would call me naive but that's why I'm asking for feedback so that I can learn and be less naive.

 

[Hartkopf]

There are so many variables. If a gun is being held on you and you're not already shot, attempting to talk your way out of it might be the best move.
I once talked my way out of a beating by a huge drunk guy who was spiraling into a rage at me. I shifted his attention to the situation we were both in, and blaming the rule makers for keeping us both down, diverting his anger. I could not have run because he was in my area with my wife and kids there.

What do you do if a gun is on you with your family or close friends there next to you? Or even just other people in general?

A gang banger doesn't care about bystanders or your family. A gang banger could easily have 33 rounds and be willing to shoot you in the back. If he shoots you in the back of the head with the 20th shot as you're running away, he wins. Doesn't matter to him if he killed two other people, he still wins and everybody else loses. Doesn't matter that you avoided the first several shots.

A gang member looking to rob you but doesn't really want to shoot? How do you know the difference? If keeping him from shooting could potentially save 3 lives, including your own, then almost anything is better than getting him started.

If you are going to be the victim of a hit, like a gang initiation, then everything happening BEFORE you ever see the gun or knife is what's important. Unfortunately, you will never see a "good" hit coming. So game planning for a hit would have nothing to do with a gun "already on you."

As has been said already, if you are not already shot, the bad guy might not really want to shoot you. A quick movement on your part just might get him started. Definitely a complicated subject with endless scenarios and variables.

 

[Kleanbore]

And the width of the torso v. the width of a forehead causes the torso to be slower in getting out of the way

Yes, and that's why people are trained to shoot at center mass.

My only point is that you can still USUALLY get out of the way or at least minimize the chance of being shot in a critical organ.

I seriously doubt that, and I'll explain later.

If 3-4 bullets are thrown in your direction somewhat arbitrarily while you're moving by a bad guy who probably doesn't practice shooting much, there is a good chance (my guess is 80%) of survival.

Actually, that is roughly the survival rate of persons who are shot by handguns.

But for heaven's sake, it is far better to not be shot at all. That is why I said that an armed person who demanded my car keys will ket them. Better odds that way.

Maybe some on here would call me naive

Well, yes, but that is not a perforative term, and we all start that way.

but that's why I'm asking for feedback so that I can learn and be less naive.

I'm not sure that there is much more to be said toward that end.

Your next steps should be at the range, and in some well-directed Force on Force training, perhaps with airsoft.

First, let me share my experience with you. I started shooting handguns around 1960; by the time i was carrying in 2008, I was practicing regularly at the square range.

Then someone talked me into attending a training session. It was given by five very experienced shooters, from the Texas Defensive Shooting Association, and each student always had one intrructor, usually a different one watching. Eveythiig was recorded on video and timed.

Here's what surprised me: we did not try for group size at all, and we di not shoot at "target shooting" speed. We started out shooting at a steel torso plate, shooting as rapidly as we could without missing. We continued to repeat the drill over and over, for the purpose of increasing our rapidity of shooting.

We then transitioned to putting a couple of rounds each onto three steel plates situated next to each other, again rapidly as possible without missing. On and on, until we had fired almost 1000 rounds. By the end, each student was firing several times per second without missing.

Bu the way, those plates were located about as far apart as you discussed moving to try to avoid being hit, and no one was missing.

A couple of days later, i had the opportunity to sign up for an excellent three day defensive shooting course given by Rob Pincus of the Personal Defense Network. The program included both class-room and shooting.

There was a lot to it, but there are two specific things that I want to mention to you.

The first has to do with achieving the right balance of speed and precision. For some of the drills, that meant hotting a target about the size of the top of a shoe box, mounted horizontally, as rapidly as possible and without missing, at a distance of about twelve feet.

The second was an exercise conduct within a three-sided berm. Students walked around and back and forth, and then the instructor called out somethng that would enable the student to quickly determine which one of a number targets near the berm represented a threat, quickly turn to engage it, quickly draw while moving off line, and rapidly shoot the target three to five times--without missing.

Do you understand why I am skeptical about the idea of moving to cause an attacker to miss, and drawing, shooting, hitting and effecting a stop with however many hits it may take before getting hit yourself?

One other thing: do not underestimate the shooting ability of the criminal element. /that has been discussed hare before. Some have combat experience, some spent some tiom in the police academy, and some send a good deal of time at the range.

I hope you find this worthwhile.

Now, look into some training--defensive shooting training. Be careful to choose among trainers whose skill sets include the ability to teach, and who understand lawful civilian self defense.

Good luck!

 

[fastbolt]

...

Now, look into some training--defensive shooting training. Be careful to choose among trainers whose skill sets include the ability to teach, and who understand lawful civilian self defense.

Good luck!

Indeed.

However, there are always going to be those folks who, when attending classes, are going to be THAT GUY. The one who drags the class down for everyone by objecting to every other thing taught and explained, who uses books, magazine articles of internet blog 'training' to dispute whatever the instructor(s) may be trying to teach.

I used to gently shut down such folks by telling them they were certainly welcome to discuss their concerns with their own attorneys after the class, or contact their favorite author or internet expert and retain them to appear and testify on their behalf in any criminal or civil cases where they knew better because of what they'd learned from those experts. (I had some attorneys and judges in the private citizen classes in which I taught, and none of them ever had a problem with what was being taught. Most said they'd learned quite a bit.)

 

[fastbolt]

BTW folks ...

Not getting hit by incoming rounds (which always have the right-of-way) is similar to not getting punched or kicked, or stabbed or cut by a blade.

Don't be in the path of those things as they arrive.

The trick to that is going to depend on a combination (variable) of things like distance, (any) cover and time ... and your ability to utilize them to your advantage more effectively than an attacker.

Arguably, it all stars with awareness, though. Then having some ingrained stuff that you can access quickly enough ... and not just get stuck in the Freeze mode of Freeze, Flight or Fight long enough to catch a passing fist/foot, stick, brick, blade or bullet.

If you're skilled enough to do a cool dance step at the same time, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

 

[Kleanbore]

In order to give the OP the benefit of more information on the selection of trainers, for his use whan he gets to that point, I spent some time looking theough THR threads on the subject. I think this one is worth perusing:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...osing-a-trainer-or-a-school-to-attend.512770/

@Jerkstore : do not hesitate to ask here for additional thoughts on the subject. I'll speak for our members and tell you that they will be happy to help.

And don't overlook one other great resource: books. Books on self defense by such authors as Massad Ayoob. Tom Givens, Ken Hackathorn, and Kathy Jackson, to name a few, can be very helpful.

But there is no substitute for some well-coached range time.

 

[JTHunter]

Here's a thought about a possible maneuver.
If - IF - the perp has the pistol in his right hand and held at about waist level, put your weight of the ball of the foot on the same side as his gun, use your other foot to push off and pivot on the ball of your foot while using your forearm to try and knock his gun hand towards his "center mass" and away from yours.
If he is behind you and the gun is in his right hand, spin to your right, using your right arm to knock his gun away. Then, if you can, keep the swing going and use your left to slug him in the neck, head, or face.
If you are F2F and his gun is in his right hand, spin so your right side is going back and away from the perp, your left arm knocks the gun towards his center, then backhand him with your right as you spin.
These actions may not work but it is possible as you're moving your center mass out from in front of the gun and, if you can connect to his neck or face, you might throw him off balance.
If the gun is in his left hand (most humans are right-handed), just reverse the spin accordingly.

 

[entropy]

Read my post about demonstrating why this isn't a good idea unless you've trained to do it. Post # 24.

 

[Bcwitt]

I think I'd run to cover which ever direction was appropriate @ the time. But that's never happened to me.

 

[5whiskey]

It would seem prudent, that if you decide to move laterally, that you move toward your dominant (gun) side. Otherwise an off center hit could disable your draw and ability to return fire.

Ehh, but if you conduct any type of times qualifications, even with competent (some more than just competent) shooters, you will see that the majority of rounds will impact to the left side of a target as they face it. Better shooters will have much smaller groups and far fewer flyers (or that shot a heck of alot faster), but their rounds will still favor the left side of the the target (as they face it). For your accomplished shooters, this "beaten zone" is usually far closer to the center of the target (and far smaller), but they will still favor hits toward the left side. This is for right handed shooters. Left handed shooters are opposite, but also are only about 10% of the population. I've seen this time and time again for many years. The beaten zone of impacts will favor the left side of a target for right handed shooters, and the right side for lefties. This is so because of imperfect trigger control when shooting quickly. Again, this is "left side" as the shooter views the target. By this logic, it would be beneficial to move to your left playing the 90% chance that your shooter is right handed. This moves you away from the beaten zone of your assailants rapid shots.

Of course your point is entirely valid. Also consider that it's easier for a shooter to rotate the torso toward the non-dominant side (ala the tank turret) for 2 handed shooting than it is to the dominant side. Both of these factors make moving toward the dominant side while getting off the X a logical option, and for right handed shooters, that is to the right. Just be aware that if your assailant jerks the trigger, you are running into the beaten zone of their fire if they are right handed

If you've ever done simmunitions training you would have all the answers to your questions.

This. Drawing and firing from concealment while getting off the X on a drawn gun is a nice drill, but i dont find it practical. Drawing and firing from a duty belt while getting off the X has a time and place, and i teach it. Drawing is usually much quicker, and ideally your assailant hasn't completed their draw yet. But as many have said, drawing on a drawn handgun (concealment or duty gear) is a terrible option. I wont say suicide, as God may favor you that day, but odds are stacked against you. Negotiation with someone who may not be intent on shooting you is probably a better option.