Leading with 38/357

[nozero]

I am experiencing leading issues with my loads and am looking for opinions on what to do.

Using 158 gr LSWC, 3.1 grs HP-38, CCI-500, 1.475 oal.
Hodgdson says this will give me 782 fps which should be good for lead. I don't have a chrono.

After firing 18 rounds I have a lot of lead in the cylinder and to a smaller extent in the forcing cone. The vendor tells me the have a hardness of 16. I measured the bullets at .358.

The formula at missouri for optimum bullet hardness gives: 11,900/782=15.21 so that also looks good. This is out of a 686.

So...do you think I should go lower beyond hodgdon starting load or go hotter?

thanks!

 

[Arkansas Paul]

1. BHN of 16 is too hard for .38 Special IMO.

2. That's a starting load according to Hodgdon's website.

The combination of these two things is what is causing your problem. Hard cast bullets at low velocities are going to lead.
That 16 BHN bullet will be great for your full throttle .357 mag loads, providing the fit is good, but for .38 Spcl stuff, especially starting loads, you're going to have that problem. Bump it up to max and see if that fixes it. It may or may not.
If it doesn't get you some bullets in the 10-12 BHN range.


And you're doing that formula wrong. It is not CUP/velocity.
It is CUP/(1422 x 0.9)

Which gives you a desired BHN of aprx 9.3 for the load you're shooting, which means you're shooting a bullet WAY harder than you need.
Even at the max load the optimum BHN is only 11.

 

[Stormin.40]

I have 158 LSWC bullets of similar hardness and get leading at 4.0gr of WIN231 which I believe is the same powder as HP-38. I had to bump the charge to 4.4gr to eliminate the leading issues. Be careful 4.4gr is in +P range according the Hodgdon but isn't according to my Lyman book, work up in your gun.

 

[Salmoneye]

Have you measured throats and slugged your bore?

Your bullets sized to .358" are pointless if your throats are swaging them to.357", and your groove diameter is .359"...

Not saying this is the case, but it can account for leading...

I know my 686-3 will not pass a .358" cast through the throats, where a .357" jacketed falls right through...

 

[Arkansas Paul]

^ Yeah if the bore is larger than the throats it will be a constant issue. I doubt that is the problem, but it is possible.
Not nearly as likely as it just being too hard a bullet pushed too slow.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My favorite .38 Special load is a 10/12 BHN 158gr LSWC over 4.0gr W231/HP-38. (w/CI-500 primer) Your charge is way too low which is probably the cause of the leading.

There is much more leading caused by bullets which are too hard than too soft. When the hard bullets combined with very low velocities do lead the reloader buys even harder bullets causing even more leading and then they claim lead bullets are just no good and lead all the time. (I'm not saying you are doing this, I'm talking in general) The bullet you're using probably need more pressure to bump up the base and seal off the gasses in the barrel. I'm betting if you load them to .357 Magnum pressures you will get little to no leading at all...

 

[nozero]

I haven't measured the gun as far as throat or bore. Guess that would be next.

I did manage to try again today using 4.0 gr HP-38 (I've heard 231 is the same thing) in 357 case. Still did get some leading but nowhere near as bad.

Hodgdon gives the range of 3.4-5.0 so I am sort of in the lower end of the range so next chance I get I will try pushing it up couple tenths at a time to 4.6.

What I had thought was just the opposite of what you all are telling me. I thought that it was too hot. This really the first time I have used lead in this gun. I had always used plated or jacketed before.

Thanks to all for your suggestions. Hope to try again after the holiday.

Everyone please have a happy, safe holiday!

 

[Arkansas Paul]

What I had thought was just the opposite of what you all are telling me. I thought that it was too hot. This really the first time I have used lead in this gun. I had always used plated or jacketed before.

Don't feel bad. Its a common misconception among people who are new to lead. I had the same idea when I started too.

 

[MEHavey]

Bullet hardness in not your problem.
The leading the cylinder is the dead giveaway.

For cast bullets, you want a cylinder throat that "just" passes your groove(+) diameter
bullet with a gentle push from a pencil eraser. Anything tighter than that and you're
whistling in the wind as the throat squeezes them small, and then they hit the forcing
cone loose & at an angle.

Brinell 100 jackets can recover from that,
Lead cannot.

(I've had to ream out four 45 Colt cylinders for this very reason.)

 

[gonoles_1980]

I had an interesting "issue"

I noticed some leading in the barrel of my Charter Arms Undercover 38spl after firing some factory LRN's. I cleaned it up pretty good, but there was still some minor leading in the barrel. I figured I'd get some of the Choreboys(sp?) and clean it out later. Went shooting yesterday with my own reloads, 3.6gr W231 231 speer LRN's. Went to clean the guns after getting back from the range, and there was no leading in the barrel. I don't know, maybe my reloads help cleaned it out. But I thought that only worked with jacketed bullets.

 

[41 Mag]

I had an interesting "issue"

gonoles,

What you saw is something that does happen, but is usually used on a mold rather than through the barrel.

There are times when specks or flashes of lead will get out of the cavities of the mold and onto the faces of the blocks. Removing them can be somewhat frustrating to a new caster. Taking a piece of lead, usually one of the same type alloy in ingot form and rubbing it across the spots on the mold faces will usually remove it just like a pencil eraser would. Sometimes it take a bit more than that but in most cases this will usually get the job done just like in your barrel. The softer lead you ran through soaked up the lead fouling as they passed over it just like a sponge.

It's great when it works out that way instead of building up more on top of that is already there.

Sometimes the "jacketed" method of removal isn't quite what it seems either. Sometimes the jacketed bullets will actually just iron the lead down into the grooves of the barrel as it passes over. After 4 or 5 rounds looking down through the barrel appears it is clean when in fact it still has a layer of lead only now it has been well ingrained into the bore. Personally I have never done this, I clean out everything down to clean steel in between. I have had both sided of the barrel on leading and badly copper fouled and I don't like cleaning either one. With lead usually the Chore Boy get it done rather swiftly and easily, throw some copper over it and well not so friendly to get all out.

Just my .02.

 

[gonoles_1980]

Thank 41mag

Will I run into the coppering(is that a word) firing 20 rounds of the jacketed? I do like to fire some of the fully loaded 357's, but 20 is about all I can do before I start feeling it. That's why I prefer the more rounds with my loads.

 

[454PB]

Firing a lead boolit at very low velocity through a leaded barrel will remove leading.

It works just like slugging the barrel.....pushing the leading out, and is actually safer than firing a jacketed bullet for the same purpose.

The trick is to get the boolit going fast enough to completely exit, so if you're going to try it, have a brass rod and hammer available to clear the barrel if you screw up.

Personally, I always have a "clearing" rod with me at the range.

 

[jim8115]

I am experiencing leading issues with my loads and am looking for opinions on what to do.

Using 158 gr LSWC, 3.1 grs HP-38, CCI-500, 1.475 oal.
Hodgdson says this will give me 782 fps which should be good for lead. I don't have a chrono.

After firing 18 rounds I have a lot of lead in the cylinder and to a smaller extent in the forcing cone. The vendor tells me the have a hardness of 16. I measured the bullets at .358.

The formula at missouri for optimum bullet hardness gives: 11,900/782=15.21 so that also looks good. This is out of a 686.

So...do you think I should go lower beyond hodgdon starting load or go hotter?

thanks!

At those velocities, stick with swaged bullets, like the honandy or zero... You can shoot them all day with no leading. Way too slow for had-cast

 

[MEHavey]

Before the OP does anything:

- Slug the barrel
- Slug the cylinder

If the cylinder throat is smaller than the grooves, lead bullets will perform (very) poorly.